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Post by sandypine on Jul 16, 2023 22:36:34 GMT
As an aside the European cities are recording record temperatures precisely because they are expanding cities with ever increasing areas of tarmac, concrete glass and steel not to mention offices, houses and factories churning out heat many from air conditioning units.
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Post by dodgydave on Jul 17, 2023 0:13:12 GMT
 The planet is warming, some of it caused by natural processes, some by the amount of shit we are putting into the atmosphere and the amount of trees we are felling... everything other argument is whataboutery. The only real arguments are about the pace of change we are willing to accept. I would disagree, the pace of change is beyond our control. We are not putting shit into the atmosphere we are putting in very important plant food which they need to keep supplying us with oxygen. Most trees evolved with and much prefer CO2 levels close to twice what we currently have. I was talking about the pace of change in our behaviour ie how much pain are we willing to accept. You want a level of CO2 that suits trees and not us? I think you will find you are in a minority on that thought. |
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Post by Montegriffo on Jul 17, 2023 0:49:36 GMT
All the CO2 in the world won't help a tree that's on fire or that isn't getting enough rain to thrive.
Same with crops.
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Post by steppenwolf on Jul 17, 2023 6:33:14 GMT
The planet is warming, some of it caused by natural processes, some by the amount of shit we are putting into the atmosphere and the amount of trees we are felling... everything other argument is whataboutery. The only real arguments are about the pace of change we are willing to accept. No. The real argument is about a) whether what we see actually is "climate change" as opposed to "weather" and b) if it actually is climate change what is the main cause. Is it mainly natural factors or is it mainly man-made? If it's mainly man-made then what is the main cause - the massive repurposing of the land surface to cope with the vastly increased population or the increase in CO2, or something else again. We know the political opinion is that it's caused by CO2 - and the huge increase in human population has no effect - but scientists are not so sure. Personally I think it defies all logic to say that buildings and infrastructure don't cause warming. If that were true why are urban areas several degrees warmer than rural areas. And the models that are built on the CO2 hypothesis patently don't work - which usually means that the hypothesis is wrong. |
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Post by zanygame on Jul 17, 2023 6:43:17 GMT
Nothing ever is. Sea colour change, glacial retreat, increased frequency of highest temperatures, melting sea ice. None are absolute proof of global warming. Well if there was not so much overegging and blatant 'we have had a heavy rainstorm and it is evidence of global warming' then that may help your case. As regards Alpine glaciers they should have continued growing until about 1910 if the CO2 theory holds water but they started retreating before that and were subject to other factors. Evidence should be incontestable in the normal course of events, so far the evidence is pretty flimsy, the models do not work and pointing at individual events is rife yet individual events are often not unprecedented unless of course expunged from history because they get in the way of a wonderful maximum temperature. Or each time a meteorologist says this heavy rain storm is unusual and is probably climate change, its because it probably is due to climate change. And yes, glacial retreat is not due to climate change, nor is Sea colour change, increased frequency of highest temperatures, melting sea ice, unusual weather patterns. None of it is, its all natural and just all happens to be happening across the globe at the same time as the temperature may or may not have risen by 1.1 degrees assuming all the thermometers are not inaccurate in the same direction. |
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Post by steppenwolf on Jul 17, 2023 9:50:00 GMT
So what was the ETCW (Early Twentieth Century Warming), Zany? It looked exactly like the recent warming on the graph but it occurred about 100 years ago BEFORE there had been any significant increase in CO2. And now, if you look at the graphs, it has disappeared. It's entirely possible that the current warming will just disappear when we look at temperature change over a longer period of time.
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Post by johnofgwent on Jul 17, 2023 9:59:47 GMT
If anyone tries to tell me we have global warming and a heatwave they are going to get a slap. The forecast for this area for the weekend is 63 degrees! - it's the middle of July and I'm toying with putting the heating back on.. You are making the same mistake that so many make, ie mistaking weather for climate. Day to day, week to week, and month to month, weather will change, sometimes providing hot sunny weather, other times cooler and wetter weather. But that is just weather. Climate is generally a longer term meteorology measure, changes in which are measured by long term averages and any increases or decreases in the overall frequency and/or severity of extreme weather events. Even in a warmer climate there will still be localised cold snaps of below average temperatures from time to time. That's just weather. We have a low pressure dominating the UK at the moment and these are often associated with cooler, windier and wetter weather at this time of year. In southern Europe meanwhile, much of which was experiencing unseasonably high rainfalls whilst we were enjoying our June heatwave, they are now forecast to experience extreme heat. It is notable that cold snaps rarely break records for their coldness, but heatwaves frequently break records for their hotness, which is a clue to the overall climatic trend, as opposed to mere weather. OK. So why was the carboniferous a period of hot steamy fern laden jungle and what was the c02 level then and why did the planet not broil. |
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Post by bancroft on Jul 17, 2023 10:59:26 GMT
An inconvenient fact or facts are that South Africa and Southern Australia are getting snow as is Northern Texas.
Alternative reporting indicates that although some Antarctic ice is melting other parts are thickening yet the latter never gets mentioned.
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Post by sandypine on Jul 17, 2023 12:44:25 GMT
Well if there was not so much overegging and blatant 'we have had a heavy rainstorm and it is evidence of global warming' then that may help your case. As regards Alpine glaciers they should have continued growing until about 1910 if the CO2 theory holds water but they started retreating before that and were subject to other factors. Evidence should be incontestable in the normal course of events, so far the evidence is pretty flimsy, the models do not work and pointing at individual events is rife yet individual events are often not unprecedented unless of course expunged from history because they get in the way of a wonderful maximum temperature. Or each time a meteorologist says this heavy rain storm is unusual and is probably climate change, its because it probably is due to climate change. And yes, glacial retreat is not due to climate change, nor is Sea colour change, increased frequency of highest temperatures, melting sea ice, unusual weather patterns. None of it is, its all natural and just all happens to be happening across the globe at the same time as the temperature may or may not have risen by 1.1 degrees assuming all the thermometers are not inaccurate in the same direction. However unusual weather is not happening all over the place all at once. It is repeated that it is but most current events are not unprecedented in the historical record. A weather reporter has no right to say this is probably climate change as he is making a scientific judgement based on little else but his experience in reporting weather. I know that many would be up in arms if a reporter said this is probably not climate change it is just a bit of out of the ordinary weather that has happened before, may happen again and may not. We have to remember that climate change is an actuality however the words are now used to mean AGW. What is an unusual weather pattern? About 15 years ago we had a really cold spring, about 80 years ago we had a very warm and calm Indian summer, 25 years ago I had my shorts on in the garden in the first week of November. All weather patterns tend to be unusual to some degree. The actual measures of wind, storms, hurricanes, rainfall, sea level rise, cold snaps, heatwaves, droughts, forest fires are all within the previously experienced weather and in fact some are more benign and/or far less than even 100 years ago. And back again to European heatwave, teh record temps are occurring currently in the cities can you think of any reason why that would be the case other than AGW, I can. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2023 14:59:17 GMT
You are making the same mistake that so many make, ie mistaking weather for climate. Day to day, week to week, and month to month, weather will change, sometimes providing hot sunny weather, other times cooler and wetter weather. But that is just weather. Climate is generally a longer term meteorology measure, changes in which are measured by long term averages and any increases or decreases in the overall frequency and/or severity of extreme weather events. Even in a warmer climate there will still be localised cold snaps of below average temperatures from time to time. That's just weather. We have a low pressure dominating the UK at the moment and these are often associated with cooler, windier and wetter weather at this time of year. In southern Europe meanwhile, much of which was experiencing unseasonably high rainfalls whilst we were enjoying our June heatwave, they are now forecast to experience extreme heat. It is notable that cold snaps rarely break records for their coldness, but heatwaves frequently break records for their hotness, which is a clue to the overall climatic trend, as opposed to mere weather. OK. So why was the carboniferous a period of hot steamy fern laden jungle and what was the c02 level then and why did the planet not broil. CO2 levels were very high at the start of the Carboniferous period, most likely due to millions of years of volcanic outgassing. Consequently it was very hot compared to today in spite of the fact that the sun would have been cooler. Average global temperatures were as high as 20C. High levels of CO2 and warm climate created the ideal conditions for plant life of various kinds which proliferated. But this plant life itself as it developed began to suck ever more CO2 out of the atmosphere, faster than it could be replenished, so CO2 levels began to fall, and with it average global temperatures which by the end of the carboniferous period had fallen to about 12 C. The conditions by now in a cooler climate with less CO2 were not so conducive to prolific plant life, but the oxygen by now pumped out into the atmosphere had created more favourable conditions for animal life to develop in greater diversity and abundance. There is nothing in any of these facts that undermines the known scientific facts about the capacity of CO2 to act as a greenhouse gas. Indeed, high CO2 levels coincided with a very warm climate and declining levels were matched by a cooling one. |
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Post by johnofgwent on Jul 17, 2023 15:31:20 GMT
So wecare finally seeing some sense then in that the REAL ‘climate emergency’ is some lefty twats want to fill this countryvwith PEOPLE and destroy the greenery that removes the C02
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Post by patman post on Jul 17, 2023 17:35:56 GMT
An inconvenient fact or facts are that South Africa and Southern Australia are getting snow as is Northern Texas. Alternative reporting indicates that although some Antarctic ice is melting other parts are thickening yet the latter never gets mentioned.Where is this happening, and over what periods of time…? |
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Post by bancroft on Jul 17, 2023 19:13:38 GMT
The other side to which they claim it is melting.
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Post by sandypine on Jul 17, 2023 19:36:38 GMT
I would disagree, the pace of change is beyond our control. We are not putting shit into the atmosphere we are putting in very important plant food which they need to keep supplying us with oxygen. Most trees evolved with and much prefer CO2 levels close to twice what we currently have. I was talking about the pace of change in our behaviour ie how much pain are we willing to accept. You want a level of CO2 that suits trees and not us? I think you will find you are in a minority on that thought. The point is will any level of pain actually work meaning are we actually responsible. The point about trees is that they will thrive with increasing levels of CO2 as will all vegetation. |
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Post by zanygame on Jul 17, 2023 19:43:04 GMT
So what was the ETCW (Early Twentieth Century Warming), Zany? It looked exactly like the recent warming on the graph but it occurred about 100 years ago BEFORE there had been any significant increase in CO2. And now, if you look at the graphs, it has disappeared. It's entirely possible that the current warming will just disappear when we look at temperature change over a longer period of time. It was the same as now. Just a freak weather event. Just as all the glaciers are receding but each for their own personal reasons, some prefer higher locations, some are shy. There's lots of reasons, none of them climate change. Obviously those explaining why man made climate change doesn't exist don't have time to explain the personal circumstances of each glacier, so they are forced to use certain ones as examples. Such as ones effected by soot. |
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