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Post by oracle75 on Jul 11, 2023 12:31:22 GMT
A subject high on the list of the connference in Vilnius..
Rumour has it that an offer will be made when the war ends.
Is that a good idea or just stocking up a future world war??
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2023 12:58:14 GMT
A subject high on the list of the connference in Vilnius.. Rumour has it that an offer will be made when the war ends. Is that a good idea or just stocking up a future world war?? Putin is against NATO expansion eastwards into what he regards as a Russian sphere of interest by what he regards as a US led enemy alliance. Any talk of Ukraine joining NATO as soon as the war is over guarantees that Russia will not seek to negotiate any time soon. Any solution to this crisis must be along lines similar to the following:- Russia as well as we must respect Ukrainian sovereignty. We must all recognise that the Crimea was never historically part of Ukraine and was transferred to it in Soviet times for purely administrative reasons. It is populated mostly by ethnic Russians. All sides should acknowledge this fact with a return to Ukrainian borders as they existed prior to the transfer of the Crimea. All ethnic Ukrainians held by Russia should be allowed to return to the Ukraine if they wish to do so. All ethnic Russians inside Ukraine should be guaranteed their rights, including duel citizenship if they wish, their right to speak Russian and sing patriotic Russian songs and suchlike if they wish. Any far right elements in Ukraine should be suppressed because it is the right thing to do anyway and would allow Putin to claim a success in suppressing Nazis. Such a face saver might be necessary. The Ukraine should then adopt a position of strict neutrality, not joining NATO or the EU. There is cold war precedent for this, eg strict Austrian neutrality in return for Soviet forces leaving the country in the 50s. Ukraine should adopt a similar position. It's constant attempts to join the western alliances makes it seem like a threat to Russia. Strict neutrality guaranteed by everyone would remove this threat. Then the USA, the UK, the EU, Nato, China, and Russia should all guarantee both the independence of Ukraine and its strict neutrality. All sides should desist from covert interference as part of an agreed peace. Ethnic Russians wishing to leave Ukraine should be financially assisted to do so. |
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Post by Vinny on Jul 11, 2023 13:17:40 GMT
Putin caused NATO expansion by being the bullyboy of Eastern Europe.
The least we can do now, is protect Ukraine.
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Post by Handyman on Jul 11, 2023 13:23:48 GMT
Putin caused NATO expansion by being the bullyboy of Eastern Europe. The least we can do now, is protect Ukraine. Yes , on the other hand IMO Putin wants to drag NATO into his war |
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Post by Handyman on Jul 11, 2023 14:04:29 GMT
The President of Lithuania Nauseda is urging NATO Troops to be permanently deployed near Russian Borders, to scrap in constraints because the underlying Treaty with Moscow is dead.
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Post by Pacifico on Jul 11, 2023 17:07:23 GMT
A subject high on the list of the connference in Vilnius.. Rumour has it that an offer will be made when the war ends. Is that a good idea or just stocking up a future world war?? Putin is against NATO expansion eastwards into what he regards as a Russian sphere of interest by what he regards as a US led enemy alliance. Any talk of Ukraine joining NATO as soon as the war is over guarantees that Russia will not seek to negotiate any time soon. Any solution to this crisis must be along lines similar to the following:- Russia as well as we must respect Ukrainian sovereignty. We must all recognise that the Crimea was never historically part of Ukraine and was transferred to it in Soviet times for purely administrative reasons. It is populated mostly by ethnic Russians. All sides should acknowledge this fact with a return to Ukrainian borders as they existed prior to the transfer of the Crimea. All ethnic Ukrainians held by Russia should be allowed to return to the Ukraine if they wish to do so. All ethnic Russians inside Ukraine should be guaranteed their rights, including duel citizenship if they wish, their right to speak Russian and sing patriotic Russian songs and suchlike if they wish. Any far right elements in Ukraine should be suppressed because it is the right thing to do anyway and would allow Putin to claim a success in suppressing Nazis. Such a face saver might be necessary. The Ukraine should then adopt a position of strict neutrality, not joining NATO or the EU. There is cold war precedent for this, eg strict Austrian neutrality in return for Soviet forces leaving the country in the 50s. Ukraine should adopt a similar position. It's constant attempts to join the western alliances makes it seem like a threat to Russia. Strict neutrality guaranteed by everyone would remove this threat. Then the USA, the UK, the EU, Nato, China, and Russia should all guarantee both the independence of Ukraine and its strict neutrality. All sides should desist from covert interference as part of an agreed peace. Ethnic Russians wishing to leave Ukraine should be financially assisted to do so. Not sure there is anyone in Ukraine (or the rest of Europe) who would trust Russian assurances - hence the desire to follow Finland and Sweden and join NATO as fast as possible. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2023 19:03:55 GMT
Putin is against NATO expansion eastwards into what he regards as a Russian sphere of interest by what he regards as a US led enemy alliance. Any talk of Ukraine joining NATO as soon as the war is over guarantees that Russia will not seek to negotiate any time soon. Any solution to this crisis must be along lines similar to the following:- Russia as well as we must respect Ukrainian sovereignty. We must all recognise that the Crimea was never historically part of Ukraine and was transferred to it in Soviet times for purely administrative reasons. It is populated mostly by ethnic Russians. All sides should acknowledge this fact with a return to Ukrainian borders as they existed prior to the transfer of the Crimea. All ethnic Ukrainians held by Russia should be allowed to return to the Ukraine if they wish to do so. All ethnic Russians inside Ukraine should be guaranteed their rights, including duel citizenship if they wish, their right to speak Russian and sing patriotic Russian songs and suchlike if they wish. Any far right elements in Ukraine should be suppressed because it is the right thing to do anyway and would allow Putin to claim a success in suppressing Nazis. Such a face saver might be necessary. The Ukraine should then adopt a position of strict neutrality, not joining NATO or the EU. There is cold war precedent for this, eg strict Austrian neutrality in return for Soviet forces leaving the country in the 50s. Ukraine should adopt a similar position. It's constant attempts to join the western alliances makes it seem like a threat to Russia. Strict neutrality guaranteed by everyone would remove this threat. Then the USA, the UK, the EU, Nato, China, and Russia should all guarantee both the independence of Ukraine and its strict neutrality. All sides should desist from covert interference as part of an agreed peace. Ethnic Russians wishing to leave Ukraine should be financially assisted to do so. Not sure there is anyone in Ukraine (or the rest of Europe) who would trust Russian assurances - hence the desire to follow Finland and Sweden and join NATO as fast as possible. There will have to be guarantees from the rest of us. But as long as Putin sees NATO as a threat with Ukraine set to join it as soon as the fighting stops, he wont stop fighting. That is just realpolitik. If we cannot convince him that NATO is not a threat, then we should go the neutrality option, guaranteed by us. Even if Russian guarantees are worthless, ours will be in place too as a deterrent. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2023 19:09:10 GMT
Putin caused NATO expansion by being the bullyboy of Eastern Europe. The least we can do now, is protect Ukraine. Which is what we are doing by supplying arms. But for as long as Russia sees NATO as a threat, and for as long as it looks likely that Ukraine will join it as soon as the fighting is over, Russia will not stop fighting. If pushed into a corner, Russia will use nukes rather than allow itself to be pushed into what it sees as a corner. We need to recognise historic Russian fears and build a peace around acknowledging that. |
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Post by Vinny on Jul 11, 2023 20:14:13 GMT
We are supplying arms because they have been invaded and are being bombed.
Would you let them be massacred?
Would you let a puppet government be forced upon them against their democratic will, and be turned into a dictatorship?
Cos I won't.
All your left wing credentials, and you'd appease an invader? A tyrant? A fascist?
Would you?
Say right now, that the lend lease of military aid to Ukraine since it was attacked, has been absolutely right.
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Post by oracle75 on Jul 11, 2023 20:31:38 GMT
This is a discussion of the possibility of Ukraine being brought closer to NATO as being discussed in Vilnius this week.
And the possible outcomes.
Not Iggy's dreams of a perfect world.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2023 20:56:55 GMT
"Sphere of Interest" is what this war is all about, because Putin and his cronies cannot accept that in 1991 Ukraine became a fully independent nation, independent from the Soviet Union, and independent of Russia.
President Putin wants to somehow bring back something along the lines of the Soviet Union or the Russian Empire, but either way it is imperialism at its worst.
The future destiny of Ukraine should be up to (1) The people of Ukraine (2) The democratically elected government of Ukraine, and NO ONE ELSE, INCLUDING PUTIN.
NATO membership was not on the agenda as far as Ukraine was concerned UNTIL Russia violated the sovereignty of Ukraine by first of all backing armed separatists, and then waging all out war on Ukraine.
Sweden - would not have joined NATO if it had not been for Putin's unprovoked war on Ukraine
Finland - would have not applied for NATO membership if Putin had not invaded Ukraine
Ukraines sovereignty and independence including its right to self determination must be respected, and when Putin is either deposed, or when he realises he cannot win this war, then Ukraine MUST be allowed to join NATO if thats what Ukraine wishes.
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Post by Pacifico on Jul 11, 2023 21:02:18 GMT
Not sure there is anyone in Ukraine (or the rest of Europe) who would trust Russian assurances - hence the desire to follow Finland and Sweden and join NATO as fast as possible. There will have to be guarantees from the rest of us. But as long as Putin sees NATO as a threat with Ukraine set to join it as soon as the fighting stops, he wont stop fighting. That is just realpolitik. If we cannot convince him that NATO is not a threat, then we should go the neutrality option, guaranteed by us. Even if Russian guarantees are worthless, ours will be in place too as a deterrent. How do we guarantee Ukrainian neutrality if Russia attacks again? - go to war?. If so its no different to Ukraine joining NATO for the protection of Article 5. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2023 5:57:16 GMT
There will have to be guarantees from the rest of us. But as long as Putin sees NATO as a threat with Ukraine set to join it as soon as the fighting stops, he wont stop fighting. That is just realpolitik. If we cannot convince him that NATO is not a threat, then we should go the neutrality option, guaranteed by us. Even if Russian guarantees are worthless, ours will be in place too as a deterrent. How do we guarantee Ukrainian neutrality if Russia attacks again? - go to war?. If so its no different to Ukraine joining NATO for the protection of Article 5. The difference is that Russia sees NATO as an enemy alliance, and will not stop fighting if Ukraine is going to join it after the war. |
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Post by Pacifico on Jul 12, 2023 6:25:06 GMT
Russia has always seen NATO as an enemy alliance - that is why it was created in the first place. The idea that Russia cannot accept a NATO member on its border with Ukraine but is perfectly fine with having NATO on its borders with Latvia, Estonia and Finland is nonsensical.
Ukraine has as much right as any other sovereign country to decide what international alliances it wants to be part of - Russia does not get a veto.
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Post by Vinny on Jul 12, 2023 6:33:54 GMT
How do we guarantee Ukrainian neutrality if Russia attacks again? - go to war?. If so its no different to Ukraine joining NATO for the protection of Article 5. The difference is that Russia sees NATO as an enemy alliance, and will not stop fighting if Ukraine is going to join it after the war. Course it will, all it takes is for Russia to be pushed back to its borders and booted from Crimea. That may take another two years. But it will happen. And if Russia blows up that nuclear power plant, NATO triggers Article 5 and goes into Ukraine sweeping Russia out anyway. High time we played hardball with Putin, rather than appeaser. He's a bully with nukes, but he knows he cannot use them. |
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