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Post by johnofgwent on Jul 12, 2023 6:50:50 GMT
The thing is, NATO was created in the first place to counter the threat from the then union of soviet socialist republics.
Admittedly a number of those have defected to the west but what we see now is the clearest possible evidence NATO has become a pointless pen-pushing. If Putin - or worse, for there are worse- were to decide having crushed Ukraine to return Poland to the bosom of Mother Russia, are you REALLY going to tell me the USA would give a flying one ? They did bugger all until they were dragged screaming into the last two.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2023 19:18:47 GMT
The difference is that Russia sees NATO as an enemy alliance, and will not stop fighting if Ukraine is going to join it after the war. Course it will, all it takes is for Russia to be pushed back to its borders and booted from Crimea. That may take another two years. But it will happen. And if Russia blows up that nuclear power plant, NATO triggers Article 5 and goes into Ukraine sweeping Russia out anyway. High time we played hardball with Putin, rather than appeaser. He's a bully with nukes, but he knows he cannot use them. What you are forgetting is that you cannot push a nuclear armed state run by a psychopath into utter defeat without triggering a nuclear Armageddon. And open warfare with NATO would virtually guarantee that. Playing so hard ball with a psycho with nukes courts nuclear Armageddon and the end of civilisation as we know it. It is not realpolitik. It is the politics of gung ho ignorance and be damned with the consequences. Push him into a corner and he will use nukes, probably in Ukraine initially. If NATO piles in at this point it wont be long before we are all flinging nukes around resulting in mutually assured destruction. People who were as gung ho as you in regards to the USSR were regarded as dangerous cranks, fortunately for all of us. We need to understand that Putin's Russia is just as dangerous and bear that in mind in all that we do. Yes we need to help Ukraine to prevent a Russian victory. But we need to leave Putin with a viable way out and not push him too far into a corner, still less all pile in. Nuclear Armageddon is a high price to pay to satisfy your desire to be gung ho. We need sensible people making the decisions, aware of what is at stake. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2023 20:30:50 GMT
Biden is pushing all this. He doesn't have very long to live. Even less time if the first nuke takes out the WH.
This pushing for NATO to break its own rules does seem to be madness. I think we have gone as far as we need to in supplying arms, aircraft, vehicles and training. We are already treating them as more than an ally.
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Post by Vinny on Jul 13, 2023 19:52:52 GMT
If Putin was going to use nukes he'd already have done so. He's a coward. He doesn't dare.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2023 6:47:54 GMT
If Putin was going to use nukes he'd already have done so. He's a coward. He doesn't dare. He is also a psychopath. Pushing a nuclear armed psychopath into a corner and threatening to unleash the very alliance he fears most against him, is recklessness bordering on the stupid. Because you are gambling the survival of human civilisation on your assumption being right. |
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Post by Vinny on Jul 14, 2023 7:31:08 GMT
Pushing him out of places he stole, is not pushing him into a corner, it's pushing him back into his own country which will not be invaded.
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Post by sheepy on Jul 14, 2023 8:03:08 GMT
If Putin was going to use nukes he'd already have done so. He's a coward. He doesn't dare. Not according to your mate Zelensky, but then are you saying he is spouting pure propaganda on behalf of joining NATO. |
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Post by Vinny on Jul 17, 2023 5:06:02 GMT
Nine years ago Putin violated the Russia Ukraine Friendship Treaty and the CSTO Treaty stealing parts of Ukraine at gunpoint via mercenaries and the regular Russian army.
Since then we urged Ukraine to take part in a peace process and negotiate with the invader.
Even an airliner was shot down. Still we did nothing but appease.
A futile and stupid exercise which simply left Ukrainian civilians hostage under enemy rule.
All it did was embolden Putin.
I'm glad we've now helped Putin's victims.
We should have helped the Chechens in the 1990s too.
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