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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Nov 15, 2022 7:55:16 GMT
It's a shame we can't hang the bastards. Yes so you’d have hung Stefan Kiszco would you? Top class whataboutery there. Well done you!  |
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Post by zanygame on Nov 15, 2022 8:58:16 GMT
Thanks for this. So to clarify, why do these cases concerning foreign criminals concern you so much? As we don't really see attempted human rights breaches within the UK, it does seem inevitable that we would only see them in cases of deportment... Oh, I dislike home-grown scumbags too – but we're stuck with them. Foreign ones, not so much. So let's get rid. And, as you accept, we don't really see attempted human rights breaches within the UK, so one wonders why you're so concerned with preserving the rights of foreign criminals?
You misunderstand me. The reason we don't get many human rights cases within the UK is that our government do not torture or execute people, they don't forcibly separate them from family and prevent visiting rights. All these things happen in Pakistan which is why when we try to deport them to there we come up against human rights breaches. Now you could argue that we don't care if these scumbags lose their human rights, but then you would have to make the same argument for home bred scumbags. Or you would appear racist. (Which you are obviously not) So what do we do? Do we remove universal human rights for some crimes? Allow torture, execution, separation from family for... (Who would you include) Of course we would need to discuss this with the rest of the world as these rights are global among civilised countries, we would need to make UK citizens aware that they may suffer torture or execution when travelling to previously considered safe countries. The thing I hate about this argument is that all you get is You never get any examination of the detail or the consequences of changing these "outdated laws". We never discuss what happens British citizens travelling around this great new world where laws are different in each place. Hence the need for UNIVERSAL rights. I would welcome your insights. |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Nov 15, 2022 9:15:23 GMT
I'm not seeing why these things should be our problem. The situation is:
Foreigner enters UK, commits crime for which part of the penalty is deportation, complains (spuriously in this case) about their "Human Rights".
Sorry, but they should have thought of that before committing the offence.
Even assuming that their claim is genuine (a big assumption in it's own right) is it really our duty of care to protect these people from the consequences of their own actions?
Surely our focus should be on what happens in this country? Surely we can't be responsible for what happens everywhere else? We don't owe these people. If they show contempt for our laws they should be removed.
What happens to them afterwards should not be our problem.
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Post by zanygame on Nov 15, 2022 11:38:30 GMT
I'm not seeing why these things should be our problem. The situation is: Foreigner enters UK, commits crime for which part of the penalty is deportation, complains (spuriously in this case) about their "Human Rights". Sorry, but they should have thought of that before committing the offence. Even assuming that their claim is genuine (a big assumption in it's own right) is it really our duty of care to protect these people from the consequences of their own actions? Surely our focus should be on what happens in this country? Surely we can't be responsible for what happens everywhere else? We don't owe these people. If they show contempt for our laws they should be removed. What happens to them afterwards should not be our problem. Again these laws are international. We cannot say they are nothing to do with us. We cannot knowingly send anyone to a country knowing they may have their human rights broken. Saying its not our problem doesn't solve it. I know you find it frustrating but the only answer would be to leave the rest of the civilised world. Incidentally. The scumbag had served time so he hadn't got away Scot free |
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Post by dappy on Nov 15, 2022 11:58:04 GMT
I'm not seeing why these things should be our problem. The situation is: Foreigner enters UK, commits crime for which part of the penalty is deportation, complains (spuriously in this case) about their "Human Rights". Sorry, but they should have thought of that before committing the offence. Even assuming that their claim is genuine (a big assumption in it's own right) is it really our duty of care to protect these people from the consequences of their own actions? Surely our focus should be on what happens in this country? Surely we can't be responsible for what happens everywhere else? We don't owe these people. If they show contempt for our laws they should be removed. What happens to them afterwards should not be our problem. Are you saying Squeezed that all people committing crime in the UK holding foreign passports should be deported? A guy who came here as a two year old, has two young kids and a decent job but was caught doing 35mph in a 30 zone. Is he on the next plane home. If not why not? |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Nov 15, 2022 12:14:58 GMT
I'm not seeing why these things should be our problem. The situation is: Foreigner enters UK, commits crime for which part of the penalty is deportation, complains (spuriously in this case) about their "Human Rights". Sorry, but they should have thought of that before committing the offence. Even assuming that their claim is genuine (a big assumption in it's own right) is it really our duty of care to protect these people from the consequences of their own actions? Surely our focus should be on what happens in this country? Surely we can't be responsible for what happens everywhere else? We don't owe these people. If they show contempt for our laws they should be removed. What happens to them afterwards should not be our problem. Again these laws are international. We cannot say they are nothing to do with us. We cannot knowingly send anyone to a country knowing they may have their human rights broken. Saying its not our problem doesn't solve it. I know you find it frustrating but the only answer would be to leave the rest of the civilised world. Incidentally. The scumbag had served time so he hadn't got away Scot free
In case you hadn't noticed, they lost the appeal. They are being deported. But it should have happened far sooner.
And incidentally, other countries that are subject to the same international laws don't seem to have the same issues with this that we do.
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Nov 15, 2022 12:19:33 GMT
I'm not seeing why these things should be our problem. The situation is: Foreigner enters UK, commits crime for which part of the penalty is deportation, complains (spuriously in this case) about their "Human Rights". Sorry, but they should have thought of that before committing the offence. Even assuming that their claim is genuine (a big assumption in it's own right) is it really our duty of care to protect these people from the consequences of their own actions? Surely our focus should be on what happens in this country? Surely we can't be responsible for what happens everywhere else? We don't owe these people. If they show contempt for our laws they should be removed. What happens to them afterwards should not be our problem. Are you saying Squeezed that all people committing crime in the UK holding foreign passports should be deported? A guy who came here as a two year old, has two young kids and a decent job but was caught doing 35mph in a 30 zone. Is he on the next plane home. If not why not?
Pretty much, yep.
If a guy comes here as a child, has kids and a job and still isn't a UK national after all those years then yes, deport him (although clearly there should be, and indeed, there are limits on the offence type. No one should get deported for a speeding ticket. Child abuse, robbery and drugs however, yeah chuck 'em out).
Incidentally, that was a problem for a lot of the Windrush people and their descendants: Despite numerous offers and eligibility many never bothered to apply for UK citizenship. Fair do's, if that's what they want. But if you elect to stay foreign then you could be up for deportation should you commit a serious crime.
Seems fair.
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Post by Orac on Nov 15, 2022 12:26:47 GMT
Are you saying Squeezed that all people committing crime in the UK holding foreign passports should be deported? If he isn't, I am. Additionally, no non-national should be allowed into the uk without some deal with the source nation that allows them to be expelled from the UK easily. If you pay fixed penalty notices on time, they aren't usually considered criminal matters. |
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Post by Handyman on Nov 15, 2022 13:38:03 GMT
Correct Fixed Penalty Notices are issued to deal with Offences which are not recordable Criminal Offences via a financial penalty, speeding, when it comes to speeding the only record kept will be on your Driving Licence Record.
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Post by zanygame on Nov 15, 2022 15:21:28 GMT
Again these laws are international. We cannot say they are nothing to do with us. We cannot knowingly send anyone to a country knowing they may have their human rights broken. Saying its not our problem doesn't solve it. I know you find it frustrating but the only answer would be to leave the rest of the civilised world. Incidentally. The scumbag had served time so he hadn't got away Scot free
In case you hadn't noticed, they lost the appeal. They are being deported. But it should have happened far sooner.
And incidentally, other countries that are subject to the same international laws don't seem to have the same issues with this that we do.
Yes I had noticed. I thought your argument was broader than just the specific case. I thought you were arguing that foreigners committing crimes in the UK should lose their human rights. As for other countries, it would be interesting to see why. Is it because they proceed faster, is it because they deport ex criminals. What are the reasons? You may even find solutions to your own issues in looking. |
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Post by zanygame on Nov 15, 2022 15:29:32 GMT
Are you saying Squeezed that all people committing crime in the UK holding foreign passports should be deported? If he isn't, I am. Additionally, no non-national should be allowed into the uk without some deal with the source nation that allows them to be expelled from the UK easily. If you pay fixed penalty notices on time, they aren't usually considered criminal matters. Still don't remove your countries obligations under human rights law does it. If you convict a guy of theft in the UK and then deport him to a country that removes limbs as a punishment for that crime, you are breaking international treaties on human rights (The right to keep both your hands  ) Having an agreement with said host country does not change your responsibilities under international law. |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Nov 15, 2022 15:38:10 GMT
I think that the Human Rights Act should be binned, it's become a farcical money-go-round for lawyers.
We already had more than sufficient rights before the introduction of the HRA: Capital punishment was abolished in the 60s, slavery was abolished 200 odd years ago, torture before that.
Of course I believe that people should be treated decently while they're in the UK (as we already did). However, I don't think that we should be responsible for foreign nationals once they're outside of the UK and if they commit a serious crime here then they should be deported and deal with the consequences. What might happen to them in their own country should not be our responsibility.
Sadly, the HRA has extended our duty of care exponentially (I suspect as an unforeseen consequence) and that's simply not tenable in the long term.
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Post by zanygame on Nov 15, 2022 15:42:50 GMT
I think that the Human Rights Act should be binned, it's become a farcical money-go-round for lawyers. We already had more than sufficient rights before the introduction of the HRA: Capital punishment was abolished in the 60s, slavery was abolished 200 odd years ago, torture before that. Of course I believe that people should be treated decently while they're in the UK (as we already did). However, I don't think that we should be responsible for foreign nationals once they're outside of the UK and if they commit a serious crime here then they should be deported and deal with the consequences. What might happen to them in their own country should not be our responsibility. Sadly, the HRA has extended our duty of care exponentially (I suspect as an unforeseen consequence) and that's simply not tenable in the long term. With the exception of the word 'sadly' you are correct. The HRA does apply to all humans and there are very good reasons why. If I can by pass human rights simply by pushing someone over the border then the Geneva convention loses all meaning. |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Nov 15, 2022 15:44:13 GMT
Were we responsible for these people's human rights before they came here?
No we weren't.
We've only become responsible since they decided to commit crimes here.
And that's absurd.
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Post by Orac on Nov 15, 2022 15:53:24 GMT
Having an agreement with said host country does not change your responsibilities under international law. If it was impossible (illegal in uk law) to send the person back, then there would be no such arrangement and consequently no entry allowed. |
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