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Post by johnofgwent on Jun 10, 2023 7:22:54 GMT
I've never had an EV, and never will, I cant afford one. And I say that as someone who drives a proper car, a car that has a beautiful huge diesel V8 under the bonnet, oh it's lovelly. And it doesn't have any EV tech that constantly records my movements.  I doubt you’ll get much choice,they plan on driving (excuse the pun) the internal combustion powered off the road. They're already talking about car sharing,not being able to drive on certain days of the week lowering speed limits to cut pollution 🤬of course such inconveniences will only apply to the plebs. As for being tracked the array of anpr cameras do that and the cashless society will see your every move and finances logged,again only the plebs. there are ways to deal with that of course After Torfaen council put a cash cow camera on the main road that goes past the sports stadium, some enterprising terrorist copied Winnie Mandela and ‘necklaced’ it. Two weeks later a stunned council replaced the camera and a week later Winmie’s admirer necklaced it and two traffic cameras near it for good measure Torfaen’s attitude took a huge shift. The cash cam was never replaced. From time to time a marked cop car was parked in a layby and real policemen with real judgement on motoring behaviour sat and waited for a callout to go elsewhere A later investigation revealed the fatality that ‘justified’ the cash cam installation was the death of a soectator attending the stadium. I witnessed the event personally. On a bonfire night with force eight gusts a firework the size of a small guided missile blew off its frame and went wildly off course into the stands, striking some unlucky bastard square in the chest. What i am pleased to say i was too far away in the opposing stand to see was the fact spectators had not so much parked their cars as abandoned them and the council provided no parking stewards so the ambulance called to the guy could not get to the stadium and the guy spent 30 minutes dying in agony. Apalling, but hardly the justification needed to erect a cash cow camera |
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Post by zanygame on Jun 10, 2023 7:24:17 GMT
Warm air is what I have and it cost about 3k installed. Why in Earth would I pay 3k to have warm air ducts fitted into my house when I have radiators ? I'm not asking you to. But is someone wants to change I am giving them costs etc. |
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Post by zanygame on Jun 10, 2023 7:26:36 GMT
Well said. Many people who criticise heat pumps don't even know how they work, let alone what to look for when buying one. Education and information are the answer. I’m sure a lot of people who criticise fossil fuel vehicles don’t know how combustion engines work and quite a few EV fans have no idea how the batteries , motors and computers in the vehicle work. I disagree. People who criticise fossil fuel vehicles criticise a specific attribute they understand very well. |
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Post by johnofgwent on Jun 10, 2023 7:35:15 GMT
Rather than using some mechanism to pump heat, you instead just heat something up. OK. Heat pumps work very differently to conventional ones. A conventional fan heater uses electricity to generate heat. A heat pump extracts heat from the air outside, multiplies it and then pumps it inside. Using this method to extract existing heat takes about half the energy of a conventional heater. ok so i sort of get it, you compress an ozone layer destroying hydrocarbon gas so hard it liquefies and then release that through a fine spray nozzle that rapidly evapourates the liquid to a subzero gaseous form in the same way your fridge freezer works. Pump the freezing gas along pipework underground and it freezes the earth while warming up from -20 to -6 or whatever the permafrost your winter lawn has become… The gas having been heated from well sub zero to marginally sub zero, the pump that compresses the said rather poisonous ozone destroying gas back to a liquid before pumping it round your home causes the liquid to be marginally warmer than it otherwise might be Honestly guys, it’s a massive con You’re paying tens of thousands to live in the back of your fridge freezer |
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Post by Orac on Jun 10, 2023 7:35:18 GMT
Rather than using some mechanism to pump heat, you instead just heat something up. OK. Heat pumps work very differently to conventional ones. A conventional fan heater uses electricity to generate heat. A heat pump extracts heat from the air outside, multiplies it and then pumps it inside. Using this method to extract existing heat takes about half the energy of a conventional heater. Not sure what you mean by 'multiplying' in this context. A heat pump takes heat from outside and moves into your house in the same way a refrigerator takes heat from inside a box and moves it outside the box. It's efficiency drops considerably when it is cold (ie there less heat and when you typically need heating). Installations vary a great deal based on complex factors |
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Post by zanygame on Jun 10, 2023 7:40:36 GMT
On average through the coldest 3 months the 3 combined use about 6kwh per day. Average through the year is about 2.2kwh per day. Just did a reading. In the last 30 days they have used 72kwh. They are www.appliancesdirect.co.uk/p/iqool9plus/electriq-iqool9plus-air-conditioner-air-conditionerMine are actually TCL smart, but very similar to above. Like most homes we also have an electric fire in our lounge, but we don't rely on it for top up. We've used it a half dozen times when it was minus 8 or 9 outside and the heat pumps struggle. We have an electric 6kw boiler, which runs twice a day for 25 minutes and heats a conventional indirect hot water tank. |
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Post by zanygame on Jun 10, 2023 7:48:55 GMT
There needs to be some way to disentangle discussion of the merits and otherwise of heat pumps, EVs, solar panels and so forth from the frankly dopey conspiracy theories about Net Zero, the Unelected Dictators of Brussels and their handmaidens in Westminster, and apocalyptic visions of a cold, damp and low-mobility future. Ok i will jump in hrre if i may On climate change, i have mixed feelings. I am quite certain the people are being fed a significant amount of bullshine and zealotry. I also wonder why all the sources of climate emergency zealotry use 1850 as their starting point when 1760 seems a much more sensible start point for the focus of animal husbandry. I owned an EV for nearly two years. It was a disaster and I am well pleased i dumped it at a profit for a fully 4WD diesel SUV Despite a scientific background and some time being paid to work with people investigating the feasibility of solar power in the past, i genuinely cannot fir the life of me see how heat pumps work. If you sank pipes deep into the ground you might exploit geothermal energy but a documentary on a german village and the utter catastrophe caused by leakage of the fluid into the surrounding rock alarms me. I find manufacturers tales of air source heat pumps akin to tales of perpetual motion machines. Heat pumps are very simple. If you increase the pressure of a gas or liquid it gets hot (Like your bike pump when you pump up your tyre) So pressurise a liquid causing it to heat up to 30c and pass it through a fan assisted radiator in your home and extract that heat. Now pump it outside and depressurise it so it drops to minus 15c and pass it through an outside radiator so it absorbs heat from the air outside. Pressurise it and pump it back into your home. Round and round. Its old tech really similar to a fridge or conventional aircon unit. Only real difference is the pressures needed to get the liquid cold enough to absorb heat from cold air outside. |
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Post by zanygame on Jun 10, 2023 7:55:41 GMT
OK. Heat pumps work very differently to conventional ones. A conventional fan heater uses electricity to generate heat. A heat pump extracts heat from the air outside, multiplies it and then pumps it inside. Using this method to extract existing heat takes about half the energy of a conventional heater. Not sure what you mean by 'multiplying' in this context. A heat pump takes heat from outside and moves into your house in the same way a refrigerator takes heat from inside a box and moves into outside the box. It's efficiency drops considerably when it is cold (ie there less heat and when you typically need heating). Installations vary a great deal based on complex factors See my explanation to John of Gwent. My system works down to about minus 9 outside and then struggles. There are higher pressure systems that work down to minus 15, but there is no lower limit down to absolute zero. I figured there would be very few minus 9 days in the UK. If you fit ground source the varies in outside temperature are far less. I was concerned when I first installed mine and kept my gas boiler and radiators for a year after installation. But they have proved very effective and I would not change back. |
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Post by Orac on Jun 10, 2023 8:02:23 GMT
Not sure what you mean by 'multiplying' in this context. A heat pump takes heat from outside and moves into your house in the same way a refrigerator takes heat from inside a box and moves into outside the box. It's efficiency drops considerably when it is cold (ie there less heat and when you typically need heating). Installations vary a great deal based on complex factors See my explanation to John of Gwent. I understand how a refrigerator works and have done for several decades.My only point was that efficiency drops when the temperature drops - also that it doesn't multiply anything. |
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Post by Orac on Jun 10, 2023 8:08:21 GMT
There needs to be some way to disentangle discussion of the merits and otherwise of heat pumps, EVs, solar panels and so forth from the frankly dopey conspiracy theories about Net Zero, the Unelected Dictators of Brussels and their handmaidens in Westminster, and apocalyptic visions of a cold, damp and low-mobility future. Despite a scientific background and some time being paid to work with people investigating the feasibility of solar power in the past, i genuinely cannot fir the life of me see how heat pumps work. If you sank pipes deep into the ground you might exploit geothermal energy but a documentary on a german village and the utter catastrophe caused by leakage of the fluid into the surrounding rock alarms me. I find manufacturers tales of air source heat pumps akin to tales of perpetual motion machines. When I first came across the notion of using this for heating (some years ago), my physics intuition told me that there would no gains. ie that it would take as much energy to create a temperature gradient by moving heat from the low temperature region as it would to add energy to the high temperature region (from somewhere else) - ie it was essentially the same transaction (conservation of energy etc etc) |
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Post by Dan Dare on Jun 10, 2023 8:14:23 GMT
To clarify: I'm not criticising any individual's choices of what they spend their money on, nor denying their 'life experiences' or their right to recount them, but rather the all-too-common habit of relying on conspiracy theories to convince the rest of us (and themselves) that their choices are the right and only ones and anything else is 'shit' or for 'arseholes'.
Let's have evidence-based argumentation please, at least in the Mind Zone.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2023 9:27:05 GMT
Rather than using some mechanism to pump heat, you instead just heat something up. OK. Heat pumps work very differently to conventional ones. A conventional fan heater uses electricity to generate heat. A heat pump extracts heat from the air outside, multiplies it and then pumps it inside.Using this method to extract existing heat takes about half the energy of a conventional heater. It does not "multiply" the heat. Have you heard of the conservation of energy? It makes outside cooler and inside warmer, basically by a reverse refrigeration process. No "multiplication" involved, Zany. EDIT: I see Orac has flagged this already. Did you say it multiplies the heat to try to big up the system? |
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Post by colbops on Jun 10, 2023 10:25:09 GMT
See my explanation to John of Gwent. I understand how a refrigerator works and have done for several decades.My only point was that efficiency drops when the temperature drops - also that it doesn't multiply anything. Of course, you are absolutely correct. Over a heating season in the UK an air source heat pump will typically have an average CoP of between 3 and 4 In warmer temperatures it'll be way above 4, and in lower temperatures it will be as low as 2 - 2.5 to put that into context, an electric panel heater has a CoP of 1 |
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Post by colbops on Jun 10, 2023 10:36:44 GMT
OK. Heat pumps work very differently to conventional ones. A conventional fan heater uses electricity to generate heat. A heat pump extracts heat from the air outside, multiplies it and then pumps it inside. Using this method to extract existing heat takes about half the energy of a conventional heater. ok so i sort of get it, you compress an ozone layer destroying hydrocarbon gas so hard it liquefies and then release that through a fine spray nozzle that rapidly evapourates the liquid to a subzero gaseous form in the same way your fridge freezer works. Pump the freezing gas along pipework underground and it freezes the earth while warming up from -20 to -6 or whatever the permafrost your winter lawn has become… The gas having been heated from well sub zero to marginally sub zero, the pump that compresses the said rather poisonous ozone destroying gas back to a liquid before pumping it round your home causes the liquid to be marginally warmer than it otherwise might be Honestly guys, it’s a massive con You’re paying tens of thousands to live in the back of your fridge freezer Close but not quite. Heat is transferred from the air to a refrigerant causing it to evaporate. The gas is compressed resulting in a high pressure high temperature gas. That gas passes through a heat exchanger causing it to liquify as it cools, ready to be heated up by the air once again. CFCs are no longer used as refrigerants, less harmful HFCs have been in play for some time and there is a constant march to lower and lower impact HFCs. In more recent times there has been growing push to switch to natural refrigerants. Funnily enough CO2 has become quite prevalent in heat pumps. |
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Post by Orac on Jun 10, 2023 10:49:39 GMT
I understand how a refrigerator works and have done for several decades.My only point was that efficiency drops when the temperature drops - also that it doesn't multiply anything. Of course, you are absolutely correct. Over a heating season in the UK an air source heat pump will typically have an average CoP of between 3 and 4 In warmer temperatures it'll be way above 4, and in lower temperatures it will be as low as 2 - 2.5 to put that into context, an electric panel heater has a CoP of 1 The figures you quote here are (in effect) 'best case scenarios' - there are many cases in which an expensive installation actually appears to waste electricity (or rather, do no better than a heater). It's a bit of a dark science and the overall effectiveness of the system(the measurement that's important) can be disappointing if you take into account the complexity of such installations. A lot of people have ended up with expensive systems that cannot adequately heat their houses and make quite a bit of noise. |
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