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Post by Handyman on May 25, 2023 7:44:32 GMT
IMHO
Welsh Water is run on a " Not for Profit " basis , it has a much smaller population then England and their rivers are heavily polluted with sewage and chemical run off from farm land, the famous fishing river the Wye River is in great danger of basically dying.
The problem is we have thousands of miles of Victorian sewers that need replacing as they cannot cope with the sewage produced 24/7 right across England and Wales, when it rains very heavily the run off from road drains backs up the holding tanks at treatment plants fill up and they have no choice but to dump untreated water in the waterways which all ends up in the sea, if they did not do that the whole system could back up and end up coming up into our houses.
I do know here in London hundreds of miles of new sewer piping had been put in and is still ongoing and will take a long time to complete if it ever ends , the water companies are having to build larger additional holding tanks and treatment centres which takes time, the new huge sewer costing billions that runs next to the Thames will be on line soon, to take away waste water away.
Its all a long term project
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Post by zanygame on May 25, 2023 15:45:18 GMT
Privatise it..  How? As I said you cannot privatise it unless you create competition. You must be aware of how bad a private company is when there is no competition. And far worse still if they are supplying an essential service. |
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Post by zanygame on May 25, 2023 16:09:28 GMT
IMHO Welsh Water is run on a " Not for Profit " basis , it has a much smaller population then England and their rivers are heavily polluted with sewage and chemical run off from farm land, the famous fishing river the Wye River is in great danger of basically dying. The problem is we have thousands of miles of Victorian sewers that need replacing as they cannot cope with the sewage produced 24/7 right across England and Wales, when it rains very heavily the run off from road drains backs up the holding tanks at treatment plants fill up and they have no choice but to dump untreated water in the waterways which all ends up in the sea, if they did not do that the whole system could back up and end up coming up into our houses. I do know here in London hundreds of miles of new sewer piping had been put in and is still ongoing and will take a long time to complete if it ever ends , the water companies are having to build larger additional holding tanks and treatment centres which takes time, the new huge sewer costing billions that runs next to the Thames will be on line soon, to take away waste water away. Its all a long term project Which is why our water bills were raised by a massive 20% the year after the privatised water companies took over. It was to pay for all that updating. And here we are 30 years later asking where did all that money go? To put this in real terms. The main water companies collect revenue of £12.8bnSo over 30 years they have had £385Bn The extra 20% is £77Bn (That's £77Bn more than the nationalised companies would have got. Now I was under the impression that private companies were supposed to run leaner and meaner than public ones, so how come that despite getting and extra £77bn we are still pumping shit into our rivers and running out of water each summer. Is it because the Chief execs earn £2.8m a year? Or maybe the the £16Bn paid in dividends over the last 10 years? |
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Post by Pacifico on May 25, 2023 17:01:10 GMT
Privatise it.. How? As I said you cannot privatise it unless you create competition. You must be aware of how bad a private company is when there is no competition. And far worse still if they are supplying an essential service. Around the globe there are private companies supplying ambulance services, fire services, air-sea rescue, health services etc etc. - there is nothing to prevent any essential service being provided by the private sector. I would also point out that several of the water companies were never nationalised and remained in private hands all though the 20th century. |
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Post by Handyman on May 25, 2023 17:27:37 GMT
How? As I said you cannot privatise it unless you create competition. You must be aware of how bad a private company is when there is no competition. And far worse still if they are supplying an essential service. Around the globe there are private companies supplying ambulance services, fire services, air-sea rescue, health services etc etc. - there is nothing to prevent any essential service being provided by the private sector. I would also point out that several of the water companies were never nationalised and remained in private hands all though the 20th century. I agree even most of them were Nationalized I remember well that local rivers were severely polluted with industrial waste, sewage, day out at the seaside sewage pipes pumping out tonnes of crap days on end, leaks and repairs a long time to get fixed stand pipes in the street for ages. No matter if they were nationalised or not we would still have to pay, we now use more water than ever, we need more water due to the number of people in the country |
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Post by Toreador on May 25, 2023 17:32:34 GMT
How? As I said you cannot privatise it unless you create competition. You must be aware of how bad a private company is when there is no competition. And far worse still if they are supplying an essential service. Around the globe there are private companies supplying ambulance services, fire services, air-sea rescue, health services etc etc. - there is nothing to prevent any essential service being provided by the private sector. I would also point out that several of the water companies were never nationalised and remained in private hands all though the 20th century. Equipped taxis with health authority permits are used as ambulances in France. |
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Post by zanygame on May 25, 2023 17:42:38 GMT
How? As I said you cannot privatise it unless you create competition. You must be aware of how bad a private company is when there is no competition. And far worse still if they are supplying an essential service. Around the globe there are private companies supplying ambulance services, fire services, air-sea rescue, health services etc etc. - there is nothing to prevent any essential service being provided by the private sector. I would also point out that several of the water companies were never nationalised and remained in private hands all though the 20th century. And have oversight from government. I.E politicians. You know, the interfering ones you refer to. |
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Post by zanygame on May 25, 2023 17:47:02 GMT
Around the globe there are private companies supplying ambulance services, fire services, air-sea rescue, health services etc etc. - there is nothing to prevent any essential service being provided by the private sector. I would also point out that several of the water companies were never nationalised and remained in private hands all though the 20th century. I agree even most of them were Nationalized I remember well that local rivers were severely polluted with industrial waste, sewage, day out at the seaside sewage pipes pumping out tonnes of crap days on end, leaks and repairs a long time to get fixed stand pipes in the street for ages. No matter if they were nationalised or not we would still have to pay, we now use more water than ever, we need more water due to the number of people in the country But the nationalised ones got 20% less money. They were starved of funds as I said at the start of this. Its classic Tory propaganda. Starve the service of the funds it needs. Watch it fall apart. Say it clearly needs privatising. Privatise it. Increase the funding. Collect the divi's I am truly gobsmacked that Tory voters can't see it happening, its so bloody obvious. Do you not want to see it, does it jar with your set ideas? |
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Post by zanygame on May 25, 2023 17:47:37 GMT
Around the globe there are private companies supplying ambulance services, fire services, air-sea rescue, health services etc etc. - there is nothing to prevent any essential service being provided by the private sector. I would also point out that several of the water companies were never nationalised and remained in private hands all though the 20th century. Equipped taxis with health authority permits are used as ambulances in France. Good idea. Volunteers take patients to hospitals in this country. I'm all for getting it done cheap. |
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Post by Pacifico on May 25, 2023 21:15:14 GMT
Around the globe there are private companies supplying ambulance services, fire services, air-sea rescue, health services etc etc. - there is nothing to prevent any essential service being provided by the private sector. I would also point out that several of the water companies were never nationalised and remained in private hands all though the 20th century. And have oversight from government. I.E politicians. You know, the interfering ones you refer to. What oversight? - they had been providing water services for decades and they continued to provide water services. To claim that was a benefit of Nationalisation is a stretch even for you..  |
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Post by zanygame on May 25, 2023 21:39:07 GMT
And have oversight from government. I.E politicians. You know, the interfering ones you refer to. What oversight? - they had been providing water services for decades and they continued to provide water services. To claim that was a benefit of Nationalisation is a stretch even for you.. Ofwat. Price capping Etc. Were you not aware of these? The claim what was a benefit of Nationalisation? |
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Post by dodgydave on May 26, 2023 2:44:18 GMT
I never said it was a "glowing example of privatisation", I am making the point that there is a lack of a grown up conversation about it. As a country we go around the same merry-go-round, of populist arguments over actually facts. We already spend more than anybody else in Europe on investment (by a considerable amount), £170b since privatisation, and our water quality and leakage rates are comparable with nationalised countries. Your bills are going up because there is a £600b legacy problem caused by decade upon decade of underinvestment under nationalisation. Can you hand on heart say that if privitisation had never happened we would be in a better position? The £600b legacy problem suggests otherwise... Who is going to pay for these new reservoirs you want? You are already moaning about your bill... If you want to argue for re-nationalisation, and argue that your water bill should match the level of supply and investment needed then I would support that. It will never happen though, your bill will be artificially low for political reasons, while the state makes up the shortfall in shadowy subsidy funded by stealth taxes. There doesn't need to be an argument of any sort, the facts are there to see. Privatisation has not delivered the benefits that were promised, and the fact that you're still blaming nationalisation, 34 years after the water industry was privatised, suggests you're struggling, ffs the water industry are projected to give £15 billion in shareholder dividends over the next six years. Yet consumers are being told to put a brick in the cistern to save water. However, we have to deal with the situation as is, we must look forward. I'm not arguing for renationalisation, the clock cannot be turned back. Even Starmer who promised to renationalise has changed his mind because it's unaffordable. However, when it comes to the utilities, this country totally fucked up privatisation. The reason we are currently paying sky high costs for fuel/energy is because successive governments have failed to plan for the future, and as virtuous as net zero is, it certainly hasn't been costed. I digress. Since we're being encouraged to have water meters fitted I suspect we are rapidly heading towards a US style water industry where consumers pay a fortune and wealthy shareholders reap the benefits. Yay the future. 1) Our energy prices have been dirt cheap for decades, to pick now, when prices rocketed because of the post COVID manufacturing ramp up, and Putin invading Ukraine as representative is the dumbest argument one could make. Pre-COVID when was the last time you shouted at the kids for leaving a light on or turned off everything at the plug every night... not for fucking decades... because that was the world of our parents and grand parents... it was never our world till now. Who should we have planned better like? France? Sky high nuclear based prices for decades, and then they have a couple of years cheaper than us and now they are the perfect example hahaha. 2) Again you fixate on dividends, and ignore what is actually being invested. Shareholders bring investment and then you pay back that investment with dividends. What are you going to replace it with? Magic interest free loans? The dividends have averaged about 4% per year, you going to borrow money cheaper than that? lol. We invest more than we ever did under nationalisation, and we invest more than anybody else in Europe, but you want to ignore that and just quote dividends out of context. So if you find dividends so morally wrong, I take it you don't have a pension because that would be hypocritical as they are funded by stock market investments. 3) I am not blaming nationalisation. I am stating the facts. The privatised companies inherited a £600b sewer problem, and how can anybody hope to solve that problem when their starting position is to lie and pretend greedy private companies are responsible for it lol. 4) You appear to believe in a fairytale land where public utilities actually make a profit, and that money can be ploughed back into investment. That is not what happens. Firstly prices will be politically, so they will be under cost, and the shortfall will be made up via state subsidy. So nobody will have a clue how much their energy / water bill actually is. With no shareholders holding the company to account nobody will care about thinks like customer service or efficiency, and Unions will bash the government of the day over the head at every opportunity. |
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Post by sheepy on May 26, 2023 5:39:16 GMT
Aha the old it's all the fault of the plebs, they have it so good now they must pay more. Which incidentally has created a rise in interest rates which removes even more money from the economy and channels all their income into basic needs for living and creates a failing economy elsewhere. Meanwhile the water is still poisoned the country is more overcrowded and the whole situation is being expanded.
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Post by sheepy on May 26, 2023 6:04:53 GMT
For a commodity which they get for free and they found out in Victorian times if you don't supply clean water and let sewage contaminate it will cause mass death and spread disease, they sure seem to be doing a shit job in doing so for your charges.
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Post by zanygame on May 26, 2023 6:22:30 GMT
Aha the old it's all the fault of the plebs, they have it so good now they must pay more. Which incidentally has created a rise in interest rates which removes even more money from the economy and channels all their income into basic needs for living and creates a failing economy elsewhere. Meanwhile the water is still poisoned the country is more overcrowded and the whole situation is being expanded. Absolutely. If the government wants to stop people spending to control inflation, its a perfect time to raise the taxes needed to fix our water system. Instead they raise interest rates which takes money from those struggling and gives it to those who are rich. Its a stupid system. |
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