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Post by Bentley on May 18, 2023 19:35:29 GMT
There is only early communism. Communism fails every time . Capitalism adapts and survives . Try to keep up Darlene . Yep, and by your measure capitalism is failing because it is becoming increasingly socialist. Just facts, Ben Dover. Nope. Your measure . You are the one that keeps repeating your delusion that a fairer society must be a default socialist society . Capitalism adapted and succeeded . Socialism imploded and died an early death ..every time . Just facts Darlene |
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Post by Einhorn on May 18, 2023 19:37:42 GMT
Yep, and by your measure capitalism is failing because it is becoming increasingly socialist. Just facts, Ben Dover. Nope. Your measure . You are the one that keeps repeating your delusion that a fairer society must be a default socialist society . Capitalism adapted and succeeded . Socialism imploded and died an early death ..every time . Just facts Darlene Meh! Maybe you were sent up a chimney as a child, Ben Dover. Most children weren't. Capitalist market forces didn't create the rights you enjoyed as a worker, or the NHS you enjoyed when you were ill. |
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Post by Bentley on May 18, 2023 19:41:46 GMT
They are not the result of a collectivist society and do not reflect the definition of socialism …………political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole. You seem to be under the delusion that capitalism can only be the capitalism that exists in your head and everything good about society must be a form of socialism. You have been groomed Darlene . LOL! Explain how the NHS, the vote for the ordinary man, and increased workers' rights are the product of market forces, Benny. You can't, can you? There's a good reason for that: they don't exist because of capitalism, they exist despite capitalism. Market forces didn't create them; class struggle did. Democracy equals socialism? Lol. Craft guild’s developing into unions equals communism Darlene? lol. A health service based on a levy equals …”.political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.” Our class struggle lead to a more democratic society not a collectivist one. Its the way you tell ‘em Darlene . Somebody in the college bar has been having you on 😁 |
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Post by Bentley on May 18, 2023 19:43:06 GMT
Nope. Your measure . You are the one that keeps repeating your delusion that a fairer society must be a default socialist society . Capitalism adapted and succeeded . Socialism imploded and died an early death ..every time . Just facts Darlene Meh! Maybe you were sent up a chimney as a child, Ben Dover. Most children weren't. Capitalist market forces didn't create the rights you enjoyed as a worker, or the NHS you enjoyed when you were ill. Capitalism adapted Darlene . Communism didn’t . Don’t be sad . |
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Post by Bentley on May 18, 2023 19:44:07 GMT
I’m going to stop this for a while . Darlene is getting a bit boring .
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Post by Einhorn on May 18, 2023 19:45:50 GMT
LOL! Explain how the NHS, the vote for the ordinary man, and increased workers' rights are the product of market forces, Benny. You can't, can you? There's a good reason for that: they don't exist because of capitalism, they exist despite capitalism. Market forces didn't create them; class struggle did. Democracy equals socialism? Lol. Craft guild’s developing into unions equals communism Darlene? lol. A health service based on a levy equals …”.political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.” Our class struggle lead to a more democratic society not a collectivist one. Its the way you tell ‘em Darlene . Somebody in the college bar has been having you on 😁 How dull, Ben Dover. For every law you claim is capitalist in China, there are 100 laws in the West curbing the right to make a profit. The West is becoming increasingly socialist, and it has a good deal more socialist oriented laws than China has capitalist oriented laws. So, which is winning, Ben Dover? Capitalism or socialism? |
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Post by Einhorn on May 18, 2023 19:46:09 GMT
I’m going to stop this for a while . Darlene is getting a bit boring . And besides, you're losing again. |
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Post by sandypine on May 18, 2023 19:47:02 GMT
Turkey? The country that was so democratic that every single Remainer said it had no chance of joining the EU this side of the 22nd century and with whom the EU were sending in personnel to teach them what was required. Do you want to try again? Well, yeah, there are degrees of democracy. Are you saying that the UK was more democratic than modern Turkey at the height of Empire? If I recall correctly, the average man didn't get the vote until 1918. Of course there are degrees but we are talking about 100 years time difference here. |
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Post by Einhorn on May 18, 2023 19:48:45 GMT
Well, yeah, there are degrees of democracy. Are you saying that the UK was more democratic than modern Turkey at the height of Empire? If I recall correctly, the average man didn't get the vote until 1918. Of course there are degrees but we are talking about 100 years time difference here. So, tell us: did the average Indian have a vote at the point Britain withdrew from India? If Britain was so intent on exporting democracy, you would imagine that the Indians could simply have voted the Crown out of India. Is that what happened, Sandy? |
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Post by Einhorn on May 18, 2023 19:54:06 GMT
Well, Sandy? It's true that India became a democratic country AGAINST the will of the British Empire, isn't it? The truth is the exact opposite of what you claim. Britain did not export democracy to India; Britain did everything it could to prevent India becoming a democracy, didn't it?
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Post by sandypine on May 18, 2023 19:56:28 GMT
Of course there are degrees but we are talking about 100 years time difference here. So, tell us: did the average Indian have a vote at the point Britain withdrew from India? If Britain was so intent on exporting democracy, you would imagine that the Indians could simply have voted the Crown out of India. Is that what happened, Sandy? No I thought I made it plain that the Empire was more intent on improving the lot of the native population. That has paternalistic and imperial overtones but nonetheless altruistic in its intent. Most Indians had the vote before teh British departed and the Constitution was born in 1951 I think which had universal suffrage. A very quick birth so most of it had to be in place first. Even the US took over a decade. |
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Post by sandypine on May 18, 2023 19:58:31 GMT
Well, Sandy? It's true that India became a democratic country AGAINST the will of the British Empire, isn't it? The truth is the exact opposite of what you claim. Britain did not export democracy to India; Britain did everything it could to prevent India becoming a democracy, didn't it? In the end it did, what you fail to realise is that the Empire was intent to improve and therefore imposed but the outcome was what we are looking at. So we are back to balance that you keep shying away from. |
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Post by Einhorn on May 18, 2023 19:58:39 GMT
So, tell us: did the average Indian have a vote at the point Britain withdrew from India? If Britain was so intent on exporting democracy, you would imagine that the Indians could simply have voted the Crown out of India. Is that what happened, Sandy? No I thought I made it plain that the Empire was more intent on improving the lot of the native population. That has paternalistic and imperial overtones but nonetheless altruistic in its intent. Most Indians had the vote before teh British departed and the Constitution was born in 1951 I think which had universal suffrage. A very quick birth so most of it had to be in place first. Even the US took over a decade. So, you agree that anyone who claims that Britain exported democracy to India is talking nonsense, don't you? Because we both know that when the Indians demanded that the will of the majority of their people be implemented, they were told they could not have that, don't we? |
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Post by Einhorn on May 18, 2023 19:59:32 GMT
Well, Sandy? It's true that India became a democratic country AGAINST the will of the British Empire, isn't it? The truth is the exact opposite of what you claim. Britain did not export democracy to India; Britain did everything it could to prevent India becoming a democracy, didn't it? In the end it did, what you fail to realise is that the Empire was intent to improve and therefore imposed but the outcome was what we are looking at. So we are back to balance that you keep shying away from. No, it didn't. It couldn't be clearer that it didn't. Democracy came to India despite the British Empire, not because of it. The British Empire strongly resisted democracy in India. |
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Post by sandypine on May 18, 2023 20:02:19 GMT
No I thought I made it plain that the Empire was more intent on improving the lot of the native population. That has paternalistic and imperial overtones but nonetheless altruistic in its intent. Most Indians had the vote before teh British departed and the Constitution was born in 1951 I think which had universal suffrage. A very quick birth so most of it had to be in place first. Even the US took over a decade. So, you agree that anyone who claims that Britain exported democracy to India is talking nonsense, don't you? Because we both know that when the Indians demanded that the will of the majority of their people be implemented, they were told they could not have that, don't we? No, because in the end it did because the will of the majority got their way. Again we are talking about some 70 years ago. |
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