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Post by Bentley on May 18, 2023 17:16:08 GMT
I think you are missing the point that Maoism is the result of imposing idealistic collectivism on the unwilling masses. Plan A doesn’t work so the narcissist fantasist convinces themselves that it didn’t work because they weren’t leading it so they try plan B . Another parallel to religious establishments . Both are born out of idealism and end up becoming the thing they claimed to hate . Unions were originally craftsman who created guilds to protect themselves not because of some fantasy about a new utopia . The fantasy of an egalitarian society was injected into guilds later on . Craft guilds were around before Marx. I see you've decided to maintain the fiction that the people of early capitalism (slum dwellers and slaves on cotton plantations, etc) willed their circumstances. I see that you are reading what’s between your ears and not what is in my post . Nowhere in that post suggests poor people wanted to be poor. I can only assume that you have realised that you have no argument and decided to fabricate a false claim . |
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Post by Pacifico on May 18, 2023 17:17:26 GMT
That is the rule of Law - nobody can be arbitrarily stripped of their property. Well it is the rule of Law in the UK - I dont know what the situation is in your country. Doc, most people would say forcing the poor to pay the rich to release their slaves was arbitrarily stripping the poor of their property. Besides, if arbitrarily stripping the slaves of their liberty didn't cause the collapse of society, I don't see how failing to reimburse the wealthy for discontinuing a highly immoral practice could do so. Morals dont come into what is the law or not - if you have property and are stripped of that property then you should have compensation. Personally I have no wish to live in a country that arbitrarily strips citizens of their property - the Germans did that in the 1930's and that was roundly condemned at the time. But each to their own - if you support arbitrary confiscation then feel free. Your country will no longer be a free country though. |
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Post by sandypine on May 18, 2023 17:44:16 GMT
Perhaps you have examples of democracy arising where the situation was not influenced by either the British or a European Empire? I imagine every democracy will have been influenced by ancient Greece. I don't find it in the least bit difficult to imagine that democracy could have taken root in many countries in which it is now established if the British Empire (or any other empire, for that matter) had never existed. You may imagine many things but do you have an example. The problem is the British Empire did exist and did have an effect. Finding a non influenced British or European Empire country within which democracy arose independently should really be a dawdle if it happened now we are in the 21st century. Before the scramble for Africa there are none there, in fact the exact opposite in many cases. The Arab countries of North Africa and the ME did not see any, The Soviet states before Sovietisation had one or two possibles as the Tsar was pressured but then that was a European dynasty. |
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Post by Einhorn on May 18, 2023 18:10:02 GMT
Doc, most people would say forcing the poor to pay the rich to release their slaves was arbitrarily stripping the poor of their property. Besides, if arbitrarily stripping the slaves of their liberty didn't cause the collapse of society, I don't see how failing to reimburse the wealthy for discontinuing a highly immoral practice could do so. Morals dont come into what is the law or not - if you have property and are stripped of that property then you should have compensation. Personally I have no wish to live in a country that arbitrarily strips citizens of their property - the Germans did that in the 1930's and that was roundly condemned at the time. But each to their own - if you support arbitrary confiscation then feel free. Your country will no longer be a free country though. Bullshit! 'Property' can and should be arbitrarily stripped where the 'owner' never had a moral right to it. No compensation is required. Things are compensated by customs all the time. The real evil wasn't stripping the slave owners of their 'property', it was recognising that human beings could be property in the first place. |
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Post by Einhorn on May 18, 2023 18:12:33 GMT
I imagine every democracy will have been influenced by ancient Greece. I don't find it in the least bit difficult to imagine that democracy could have taken root in many countries in which it is now established if the British Empire (or any other empire, for that matter) had never existed. You may imagine many things but do you have an example. The problem is the British Empire did exist and did have an effect. Finding a non influenced British or European Empire country within which democracy arose independently should really be a dawdle if it happened now we are in the 21st century. Before the scramble for Africa there are none there, in fact the exact opposite in many cases. The Arab countries of North Africa and the ME did not see any, The Soviet states before Sovietisation had one or two possibles as the Tsar was pressured but then that was a European dynasty. Well, you have to admit that it's going to be a struggle to find one, given how many countries were actually brought within European empires. Without giving it much thought, I suppose Turkey might be an example. |
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Post by Einhorn on May 18, 2023 18:16:15 GMT
I see you've decided to maintain the fiction that the people of early capitalism (slum dwellers and slaves on cotton plantations, etc) willed their circumstances. I see that you are reading what’s between your ears and not what is in my post . Nowhere in that post suggests poor people wanted to be poor. I can only assume that you have realised that you have no argument and decided to fabricate a false claim . LOL! Their circumstances were imposed on them. Considering Peterloo, how can you say that being disenfranchised and having no say in the democratic running of the country was not imposed on the British people? Peterloo was the UK's Tiananmen Square. For every atrocity in early communism, an equivalent can be found in early capitalism. |
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Post by Bentley on May 18, 2023 18:24:53 GMT
I see that you are reading what’s between your ears and not what is in my post . Nowhere in that post suggests poor people wanted to be poor. I can only assume that you have realised that you have no argument and decided to fabricate a false claim . LOL! Their circumstances were imposed on them. Considering Peterloo, how can you say that being disenfranchised and having no say in the democratic running of the country was not imposed on the British people? Peterloo was the UK's Tiananmen Square. For every atrocity in early communism, an equivalent can be found in early capitalism. Why are you making stuff up in your fuzzy little head and pretending I am claiming it? Communism is born out of a fantasy that is based in a false premise . It never works because it has to be imposed by the fantasists . Capitalism has adapted and is successful. China changed from a basket case to a success by adopting capitalism. Making shit up and claiming I said it isn’t going to refute that . |
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Post by Einhorn on May 18, 2023 18:26:38 GMT
LOL! Their circumstances were imposed on them. Considering Peterloo, how can you say that being disenfranchised and having no say in the democratic running of the country was not imposed on the British people? Peterloo was the UK's Tiananmen Square. For every atrocity in early communism, an equivalent can be found in early capitalism. Why are you making stuff up in your fuzzy little head and pretending I am claiming it? Okay, maybe you'd like to clarify something, then: in your opinion, were the conditions endured by most Brits in early capitalism imposed or voluntary? |
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Post by Bentley on May 18, 2023 18:35:06 GMT
Why are you making stuff up in your fuzzy little head and pretending I am claiming it? Okay, maybe you'd like to clarify something, then: in your opinion, were the conditions endured by most Brits in early capitalism imposed or voluntary? I never said that they were not imposed . I will repeat a previous post just for you . “I never suggested otherwise . Capitalism has never been an experiment by fantasist’s. It has been an exercise in cold cynicism. However it has adapted and it only survived, it’s spectacularly successful. Communism is a failed experiment that adopts some of capitalisms worst features as soon as the fantasists impose their fantasies on the public .” |
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Post by Einhorn on May 18, 2023 18:36:33 GMT
Okay, maybe you'd like to clarify something, then: in your opinion, were the conditions endured by most Brits in early capitalism imposed or voluntary? I never said that they were not imposed . I will repeat a previous post just for you . “I never suggested otherwise . Capitalism has never been an experiment by fantasist’s. It has been an exercise in cold cynicism. However it has adapted and it only survived, it’s spectacularly successful. Communism is a failed experiment that adopts some of capitalisms worst features as soon as the fantasists impose their fantasies on the public .” You've been saying that communism has to be imposed. Well, early capitalism had to be imposed too, Benny. |
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Post by Bentley on May 18, 2023 18:41:20 GMT
I never said that they were not imposed . I will repeat a previous post just for you . “I never suggested otherwise . Capitalism has never been an experiment by fantasist’s. It has been an exercise in cold cynicism. However it has adapted and it only survived, it’s spectacularly successful. Communism is a failed experiment that adopts some of capitalisms worst features as soon as the fantasists impose their fantasies on the public .” You've been saying that communism has to be imposed. Well, early capitalism had to be imposed too, Benny. You haven’t been paying attention Darlene . One is a fantasy of an egalitarian utopia that fails after the fantasists try to impose their fantasy and has never succeeded. The other is a exercise in cold cynicism that adapted into a successful system. Even successfully adopted by the biggest communist society on Earth. Try to keep up . |
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Post by Einhorn on May 18, 2023 18:45:35 GMT
You've been saying that communism has to be imposed. Well, early capitalism had to be imposed too, Benny. You haven’t been paying attention Darlene . One is a fantasy of an egalitarian utopia that fails after the fantasists try to impose their fantasy and has never succeeded. The other is a exercise in cold cynicism that adapted into a successful system. Even successfully adopted by the biggest communist society on Earth. Try to keep up . Socialism doesn't reject capitalism. It merely shares the profits more equitably. Is China a capitalist country or a socialist one? It means nothing to say that communism has failed when late capitalism is becoming increasingly socialist, and thus following Marx's predicted route to communism. |
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Post by colbops on May 18, 2023 18:51:23 GMT
Morals dont come into what is the law or not - if you have property and are stripped of that property then you should have compensation. Personally I have no wish to live in a country that arbitrarily strips citizens of their property - the Germans did that in the 1930's and that was roundly condemned at the time. But each to their own - if you support arbitrary confiscation then feel free. Your country will no longer be a free country though. Bullshit! 'Property' can and should be arbitrarily stripped where the 'owner' never had a moral right to it. No compensation is required. Things are compensated by customs all the time. The real evil wasn't stripping the slave owners of their 'property', it was recognising that human beings could be property in the first place. Is not bullshit, the principle has been enshrined in law for the past 800 years. How would you feel if you could be arbitrarily stripped of your house because the state determined you had no moral right to it on account of the fact that it could be used to house 10 homeless people, and the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few |
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Post by Bentley on May 18, 2023 18:55:15 GMT
You haven’t been paying attention Darlene . One is a fantasy of an egalitarian utopia that fails after the fantasists try to impose their fantasy and has never succeeded. The other is a exercise in cold cynicism that adapted into a successful system. Even successfully adopted by the biggest communist society on Earth. Try to keep up . Socialism doesn't reject capitalism. It merely shares the profits more equitably. Is China a capitalist country or a socialist one? It means nothing to say that communism has failed when late capitalism is becoming increasingly socialist, and thus following Marx's predicted route to communism. Pull the other one Darlene ….Socialism..political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole. I have said that China is a pseudo Capitalist state but …The CCP maintains that despite the co-existence of private capitalists and entrepreneurs with public and collective enterprise, China is not a capitalist country because the party retains control over the direction of the country, maintaining its course of socialist development. Yes . The UK who sold off all the council housing plus most of the nationalised industries and services has become increasingly socialist.lol . |
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Post by Einhorn on May 18, 2023 19:01:23 GMT
Socialism doesn't reject capitalism. It merely shares the profits more equitably. Is China a capitalist country or a socialist one? It means nothing to say that communism has failed when late capitalism is becoming increasingly socialist, and thus following Marx's predicted route to communism. Pull the other one Darlene ….Socialism..political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole. I have said that China is a pseudo Capitalist state but …The CCP maintains that despite the co-existence of private capitalists and entrepreneurs with public and collective enterprise, China is not a capitalist country because the party retains control over the direction of the country, maintaining its course of socialist development. Yes . The UK who sold off all the council housing plus most of the nationalised industries and services has become increasingly socialist.lol . LOL! Righty: China is becoming more capitalist. Lefty: Capitalism is becoming more socialist (look at rights accrued by workers in the past 100 years, look at Obama care in the US, the world's most capitalist country, etc., etc.) It looks like deadlock until you consider that Maoism and Marxism are too completely things, and that socialism has been making inroads into naked capitalism for far longer than China has been veering from its Maoist roots. |
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