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Post by Pacifico on May 18, 2023 10:47:26 GMT
People getting paid for the loss of their property is how Capitalism works now. Do you not understand what capitalism is? I think so. It is a system under which you, the descendant of members of an oppressed class, had to foot the oppressor's bill for releasing another group of people it was oppressing. It is a system that produces cap-doffers like you who kneel before members of that class when they tell you that you should be proud of the fact that they screwed you over (yes, I'm talking about Moggy's recent bullshit about being proud of the Empire). If taxpayers are not going to foot the bill who is? - perhaps the EU could chip in..
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Post by Einhorn on May 18, 2023 12:14:19 GMT
But he described reality, right? You are saying that he was correct, even if you don't believe he was making an original observation? I think that there is an element of truth in what others have claimed are quotes and or claimed he meant . Even a broken clock is correct twice a day , Well, you appear to agree with his basic observations: 1) you accept that religion has been used as an instrument of oppression, and was, indeed, used to oppress the British people (among others); 2) The ordinary people of Britain were locked in a class struggle with their oppressors during early capitalism.
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Post by Einhorn on May 18, 2023 12:16:21 GMT
I think so. It is a system under which you, the descendant of members of an oppressed class, had to foot the oppressor's bill for releasing another group of people it was oppressing. It is a system that produces cap-doffers like you who kneel before members of that class when they tell you that you should be proud of the fact that they screwed you over (yes, I'm talking about Moggy's recent bullshit about being proud of the Empire). If taxpayers are not going to foot the bill who is? - perhaps the EU could chip in.. Perhaps, it was unreasonable for the wealthy elite to expect the poor and the descendants of the slaves to pay them vast sums for the emancipation of people they enslaved while paying the slaves themselves nothing. What do you think? Do you think what happened reflects well on early capitalism?
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Post by Einhorn on May 18, 2023 12:23:47 GMT
He’s not even original in his own time Similar statements and influence Edit The same metaphor was used by many authors around the 19th century. In 1798, Novalis wrote in "Blüthenstaub" ("Pollen"):[13] Ihre sogenannte Religion wirkt bloß wie ein Opiat reizend, betäubend, Schmerzen aus Schwäche stillend. [Their so-called religion works simply as an opiate—stimulating; numbing; quelling pain by means of weakness.] In 1840, Heinrich Heine also used the same analogy, in his essay on Ludwig Börne:[14] Welcome be a religion that pours into the bitter chalice of the suffering human species some sweet, soporific drops of spiritual opium, some drops of love, hope and faith. Did he claim to be original in respect of that particular observation? As far as I'm aware, his chief intellectual contribution was to turn Hegel's dialectic on its head.
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Post by Bentley on May 18, 2023 12:24:59 GMT
I think that there is an element of truth in what others have claimed are quotes and or claimed he meant . Even a broken clock is correct twice a day , Well, you appear to agree with his basic observations: 1) you accept that religion has been used as an instrument of oppression, and was, indeed, used to oppress the British people (among others); 2) The ordinary people of Britain were locked in a class struggle with their oppressors during early capitalism. Religious establishments have used a stylised interpretation of religion as an instrument of oppression for thousands of years . Britain is no exception. Ordinary people are always locked in a struggle with the elite , including the elite who try to impose socialism . iirc scores of millions of ordinary people were impoverished and killed by the elite trying to impose Socialism/ communism.
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Post by Bentley on May 18, 2023 12:26:37 GMT
He’s not even original in his own time Similar statements and influence Edit The same metaphor was used by many authors around the 19th century. In 1798, Novalis wrote in "Blüthenstaub" ("Pollen"):[13] Ihre sogenannte Religion wirkt bloß wie ein Opiat reizend, betäubend, Schmerzen aus Schwäche stillend. [Their so-called religion works simply as an opiate—stimulating; numbing; quelling pain by means of weakness.] In 1840, Heinrich Heine also used the same analogy, in his essay on Ludwig Börne:[14] Welcome be a religion that pours into the bitter chalice of the suffering human species some sweet, soporific drops of spiritual opium, some drops of love, hope and faith. Did he claim to be original in respect of that particular observation? As far as I'm aware, his chief intellectual contribution was to turn Hegel's dialectic on its head. I have no idea but Marx’s disciples tend to give that impression in the same way as Christian zealots tend to .
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Post by Einhorn on May 18, 2023 12:31:30 GMT
Did he claim to be original in respect of that particular observation? As far as I'm aware, his chief intellectual contribution was to turn Hegel's dialectic on its head. I have no idea but Marx’s disciples tend to give that impression in the same way as Christian zealots tend to . Do they? Do you have a link?
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Post by Einhorn on May 18, 2023 12:36:29 GMT
Well, you appear to agree with his basic observations: 1) you accept that religion has been used as an instrument of oppression, and was, indeed, used to oppress the British people (among others); 2) The ordinary people of Britain were locked in a class struggle with their oppressors during early capitalism. Religious establishments have used a stylised interpretation of religion as an instrument of oppression for thousands of years . Britain is no exception. Ordinary people are always locked in a struggle with the elite , including the elite who try to impose socialism . iirc scores of millions of ordinary people were impoverished and killed by the elite trying to impose Socialism/ communism. It's not in dispute that early communism was appalling in almost every respect. What's in dispute is that early capitalism was any better. Early communism sent countless numbers to gulags; early capitalism sent countless numbers to prison, to the gallows and into exile (the Bloody Code and penal colonies); Early communism saw militarised labour, forcing countless numbers to work slavish hours in intolerable conditions; Early capitalism forced countless numbers to work slavish hours in intolerable conditions. Early communism saw starvation and famine; early capitalism saw starvation and famine (there was a famine that killed more than a million people in the UK in 1845); Early communism was undemocratic; Early capitalism was undemocratic (the ordinary man did not get the vote in the UK until capitalism had been in existence for 150 years). The list goes on and on.
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Post by Bentley on May 18, 2023 12:42:37 GMT
I have no idea but Marx’s disciples tend to give that impression in the same way as Christian zealots tend to . Do they? Do you have a link? Do I have a link where Marx’s disciples tend to give that impression in the same way as Christian zealots tend to ? Some quote Marx as if his utterings were gospel. Some claim that magic words can define men as women .
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Post by Bentley on May 18, 2023 12:46:36 GMT
Religious establishments have used a stylised interpretation of religion as an instrument of oppression for thousands of years . Britain is no exception. Ordinary people are always locked in a struggle with the elite , including the elite who try to impose socialism . iirc scores of millions of ordinary people were impoverished and killed by the elite trying to impose Socialism/ communism. It's not in dispute that early communism was appalling in almost every respect. What's in dispute is that early capitalism was any better. Early communism sent countless numbers to gulags; early capitalism sent countless numbers to prison, to the gallows and into exile (the Bloody Code and penal colonies); Early communism saw militarised labour, forcing countless numbers to work slavish hours in intolerable conditions; Early capitalism forced countless numbers to work slavish hours in intolerable conditions. Early communism saw starvation and famine; early capitalism saw starvation and famine (there was a famine that killed more than a million people in the UK in 1845); Early communism was undemocratic; Early capitalism was undemocratic (the ordinary man did not get the vote in the UK until capitalism had been in existence for 150 years). The list goes on and on. Early communism was so bad that it was unsustainable. It never worked . Capitalism adapted and works .
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Post by Einhorn on May 18, 2023 12:51:14 GMT
I don't know much about Mandela, but my understanding is that he condemned his terrorist activities later in life. Let Moggy condemn the worst of the empire, and then we'll hear him out on the reasons to be proud. where the Empire was, in my view, on balance, something to be proud of? Why do you believe the Empire was something to be proud of 'on balance'? Is it because you believe it brought democracy to nations that would not have it otherwise? In order for that claim to hold water, you must demonstrate that democracy has not developed in other countries that were not occupied by Britain. If it is demonstrated that countries can develop into democracies without having it imposed upon them by an outside source such as the UK, your argument fails, as there is no reason to believe that, say, India would not have developed democracy of its own accord. If you wish to say that it brought a stop to the practice of thuggery and the killing of wives on their husbands' death, you must demonstrate that that actually happened in reality (that it wasn't just the case that a small dent was made in the practice in those areas where the thinly strected British forces had a presence) and you must establish that India would not have brought it to an end of its own accord. If you wish to argue that it would only have happened later if India had done it of its own accord (with many dying in the meantime), you must show that those numbers are greater than those we know to have died as a direct result of the Empire (those who died of starvation, were turned into junkies, etc.). I've used the word 'must' a lot in this post. It goes without saying that you don't have to do anything. Of course, you are not even compelled to reply.
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Post by Einhorn on May 18, 2023 12:52:13 GMT
Do they? Do you have a link? Do I have a link where Marx’s disciples tend to give that impression in the same way as Christian zealots tend to ? Some quote Marx as if his utterings were gospel. Some claim that magic words can define men as women . Some quote Darwin, Newton, and Churchill as if their words were gospel. It would seem that false idols abound, Benny. What of it?
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Post by Bentley on May 18, 2023 13:01:08 GMT
Do I have a link where Marx’s disciples tend to give that impression in the same way as Christian zealots tend to ? Some quote Marx as if his utterings were gospel. Some claim that magic words can define men as women . Some quote Darwin, Newton, and Churchill as if their words were gospel. It would seem that false idols abound, Benny. What of it? Newton was a mathematician and scientist. People quote Newtons regarding his maths and science discoveries Darlene You never read his views on alchemy or the holy trinity . Darwin was a scientist who proposed a theory that seems to be correct . Marx was a political philosopher who’s followers not only repeatedly failed to impose his doctrine but killed millions of people in the process. There is no Churchillian political doctrine .
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Post by Einhorn on May 18, 2023 13:02:06 GMT
It's not in dispute that early communism was appalling in almost every respect. What's in dispute is that early capitalism was any better. Early communism sent countless numbers to gulags; early capitalism sent countless numbers to prison, to the gallows and into exile (the Bloody Code and penal colonies); Early communism saw militarised labour, forcing countless numbers to work slavish hours in intolerable conditions; Early capitalism forced countless numbers to work slavish hours in intolerable conditions. Early communism saw starvation and famine; early capitalism saw starvation and famine (there was a famine that killed more than a million people in the UK in 1845); Early communism was undemocratic; Early capitalism was undemocratic (the ordinary man did not get the vote in the UK until capitalism had been in existence for 150 years). The list goes on and on. Early communism was so bad that it was unsustainable. It never worked . Capitalism adapted and works . Compare the fruits of early communism with the fruits of early capitalism after 50 years. So, compare the living standard of the average Brit in 1820 with the living standard of the average Russian in 1967. You will see that communism 'worked' better to increase the living standards of the individual. Communism produced a more rapid progress for humanity (though nobody could deny that late capitalism is a better place to live than early communism or early capitalism). It took more than a century of capitalism to produce democracy; communism never had the opportunity to develop democracy - given that communism produced human goods at a faster pace than capitalism, it is not unfair to assume that it would have produced democracy in a shorter period than capitalism produced it). And communism failed in Russia because Western capitalism took a stand against it. It could not sustain the cost of maintaining itself (the nuclear arms race bankrupted it (not that it had much to begin with). Nobody misses Russian communism. It was early communism. It was appalling. But nobody misses early capitalism either.
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Post by Einhorn on May 18, 2023 13:03:11 GMT
Some quote Darwin, Newton, and Churchill as if their words were gospel. It would seem that false idols abound, Benny. What of it? Newton was a mathematician and scientist. People quote Newtons regarding his maths and science discoveries Darlene You never read his views on alchemy or the holy trinity . Darwin was a scientist who proposed a theory that seems to be correct . Marx was a political philosopher who’s followers not only repeatedly failed to impose his doctrine but killed millions of people in the process. There is no Churchillian political doctrine . Darwin proposed a theory of the evolution of species; Marx produced a theory of the evolution of societies. Darwin's theory is disputed. So is Marx's.
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