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Post by Baron von Lotsov on May 13, 2023 12:13:57 GMT
The elected are a mixed bunch - ranging from useless and corrupt to occasionally hard working and honest. The problem is in the unelected machine - which is why the elections make no odds. I'm not against unelected machines on principle - in fact, they are probably a necessity. However, ours has been corrupted to such a degree it has become a self aware enemy of its host. I don't think its a new phenomena. Those serving kings and tyrants were just as self serving as those serving politicians. The idea is that the politicians are hard working and honest, and that they are trusted enough to be believed when they whistle blow. They only need to look as Assange to see what happens to honest people. The rule is if they can prosecute you fairly they will do so. If they can't they will prosecute the whistleblower unfairly. Poor guy. He will be sitting there all on his own in a squalid cell.
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Post by zanygame on May 13, 2023 12:24:10 GMT
I don't think its a new phenomena. Those serving kings and tyrants were just as self serving as those serving politicians. The idea is that the politicians are hard working and honest, and that they are trusted enough to be believed when they whistle blow. They only need to look as Assange to see what happens to honest people. The rule is if they can prosecute you fairly they will do so. If they can't they will prosecute the whistleblower unfairly. Poor guy. He will be sitting there all on his own in a squalid cell. Passing on secrets is not necessarily the same as being honest. If I tell the other bidders at an auction what you are bidding, I'm telling the truth, but not many people would think it was a good thing.
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Post by Orac on May 13, 2023 12:29:30 GMT
It will happen one way or another - nature is like that.
Either there is significant clear out of the perverse and corrupt, or the UK will be eventually conquered by the first spear army arriving with canoes
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on May 13, 2023 12:37:18 GMT
They only need to look as Assange to see what happens to honest people. The rule is if they can prosecute you fairly they will do so. If they can't they will prosecute the whistleblower unfairly. Poor guy. He will be sitting there all on his own in a squalid cell. Passing on secrets is not necessarily the same as being honest. If I tell the other bidders at an auction what you are bidding, I'm telling the truth, but not many people would think it was a good thing. The secrets he passed on was evidence of their crimes, which no one seems to be accountable for. If you want another example then see the Labour Files from Al-Jazeera. If you want another example see the Horizon crime from the Post Office. I could go on indefinitely listing their corruption. The best MPs are the ones who stay silent. The others are on the payroll or dead.
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on May 13, 2023 12:46:49 GMT
It will happen one way or another - nature is like that. Either there is significant clear out of the perverse and corrupt, or the UK will be eventually conquered by the first spear army arriving with canoes The sad thing is none of us will be around when the UK is finally fixed. Revolutions are bloody things. Eventually our MPs will all be killed. You can push people so far, and I think they are at this point now. To rebuilt a system it likely to take a minimum of 50 years. It can't really happen any faster because you have to properly educate the kids and wait until they are old enough to run the country properly like they have now achieved in China. Chinese education is now number one in the world.
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Post by Orac on May 13, 2023 15:02:53 GMT
It will happen one way or another - nature is like that. Either there is significant clear out of the perverse and corrupt, or the UK will be eventually conquered by the first spear army arriving with canoes The sad thing is none of us will be around when the UK is finally fixed. Revolutions are bloody things. Eventually our MPs will all be killed. You can push people so far, and I think they are at this point now. To rebuilt a system it likely to take a minimum of 50 years. It can't really happen any faster because you have to properly educate the kids and wait until they are old enough to run the country properly like they have now achieved in China. Chinese education is now number one in the world. I think more and more people are starting to realise that the problem is now so significant it is unlikely to be addressed by any currently available framework for reform. There is literally no polite means by which any agency could take the power to run the country off its current owners. We still have some of the rituals of democracy but more and more they are appearing to most as literally rituals - like a coronation. How is this happening? - my view is that the pathology has been active for a while and gathering strength and it operates by a form of organisational psychiatric selection. The social atmosphere in our institutions has for a while favoured those who can repeat reality disconnected platitudes without blinking or embarrassment. The same psychiatric conditions favoured by this atmosphere disallow any reasonably complete understanding of complex concepts like democracy. Take a look at what is happening in Ireland. Polls indicate that about 80% of the population are against reforms voted in by 90% of the government. You don't get that kind if imbalance by accident.
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Post by zanygame on May 13, 2023 17:20:09 GMT
Passing on secrets is not necessarily the same as being honest. If I tell the other bidders at an auction what you are bidding, I'm telling the truth, but not many people would think it was a good thing. The secrets he passed on was evidence of their crimes, which no one seems to be accountable for. If you want another example then see the Labour Files from Al-Jazeera. If you want another example see the Horizon crime from the Post Office. I could go on indefinitely listing their corruption. The best MPs are the ones who stay silent. The others are on the payroll or dead. I am not questioning that corruption exists, just which are corruption.
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on May 14, 2023 2:15:14 GMT
The sad thing is none of us will be around when the UK is finally fixed. Revolutions are bloody things. Eventually our MPs will all be killed. You can push people so far, and I think they are at this point now. To rebuilt a system it likely to take a minimum of 50 years. It can't really happen any faster because you have to properly educate the kids and wait until they are old enough to run the country properly like they have now achieved in China. Chinese education is now number one in the world. I think more and more people are starting to realise that the problem is now so significant it is unlikely to be addressed by any currently available framework for reform. There is literally no polite means by which any agency could take the power to run the country off its current owners. We still have some of the rituals of democracy but more and more they are appearing to most as literally rituals - like a coronation. How is this happening? - my view is that the pathology has been active for a while and gathering strength and it operates by a form of organisational psychiatric selection. The social atmosphere in our institutions has for a while favoured those who can repeat reality disconnected platitudes without blinking or embarrassment. The same psychiatric conditions favoured by this atmosphere disallow any reasonably complete understanding of complex concepts like democracy. Take a look at what is happening in Ireland. Polls indicate that about 80% of the population are against reforms voted in by 90% of the government. You don't get that kind if imbalance by accident. There was a good point mentioned on LBC the other day. It was said that after many examples of people in professional careers losing their careers over the slightest of things, like say non-PC, a minor criminal offence or even a police caution, that the only people who can afford to protest are those living outside of the system. They would be like say the unemployable or maybe the min wagers. Therefore even if we did have a government who reacted to protest in a vaguely democratic way, the people protesting are hardly likely to be the kind of people who could add anything intelligent to the debate on how we run the country. Those at the top of their career with the most experience and the most to lose would be too frightened to rock the boat. It's the exact opposite to how it should be.
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Post by zanygame on May 14, 2023 6:54:29 GMT
There was a good point mentioned on LBC the other day. It was said that after many examples of people in professional careers losing their careers over the slightest of things, like say non-PC, a minor criminal offence or even a police caution, that the only people who can afford to protest are those living outside of the system. They would be like say the unemployable or maybe the min wagers. Therefore even if we did have a government who reacted to protest in a vaguely democratic way, the people protesting are hardly likely to be the kind of people who could add anything intelligent to the debate on how we run the country. Those at the top of their career with the most experience and the most to lose would be too frightened to rock the boat. It's the exact opposite to how it should be. Absolutely agree here Baron. I have been warning for some time now that the efforts to tick the woke boxes are pushing more and more people into the arms of the bigots, the racists and the "them and us" brigade. When a football manager is asked to resign for saying he hears racist chants against his coloured players every day. Oh oh, you said coloured instead of people of colourNever mind that you were clearly defending them. The pendulum needs to swing back to the middle, my fear is that if we keep pushing this end down, when it swings back it will go right back the other way.
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Post by Orac on May 14, 2023 10:16:41 GMT
There was a good point mentioned on LBC the other day. It was said that after many examples of people in professional careers losing their careers over the slightest of things, like say non-PC, a minor criminal offence or even a police caution, that the only people who can afford to protest are those living outside of the system. They would be like say the unemployable or maybe the min wagers. Therefore even if we did have a government who reacted to protest in a vaguely democratic way, the people protesting are hardly likely to be the kind of people who could add anything intelligent to the debate on how we run the country. Those at the top of their career with the most experience and the most to lose would be too frightened to rock the boat. It's the exact opposite to how it should be. Oh oh, you said coloured instead of people of colourNever mind that you were clearly defending them. The pendulum needs to swing back to the middle, my fear is that if we keep pushing this end down, when it swings back it will go right back the other way. You have done a good job here choosing an uncontroversial example. It needs to be uncontroversial because the issue isn't really the thing itself. Such rules have an organisational effect - They select for those who care little for reality and a lot for appearance, those who will repeat what they are told to repeat and feel no embarrassment They select against those who insist on talking plainly and honestly and try to build genuine trust with others. What we are seeing now is this subtle social policy bearing fruit.
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Post by Orac on May 14, 2023 10:41:56 GMT
There was a good point mentioned on LBC the other day. It was said that after many examples of people in professional careers losing their careers over the slightest of things, like say non-PC, a minor criminal offence or even a police caution, that the only people who can afford to protest are those living outside of the system. They would be like say the unemployable or maybe the min wagers. Therefore even if we did have a government who reacted to protest in a vaguely democratic way, the people protesting are hardly likely to be the kind of people who could add anything intelligent to the debate on how we run the country. Those at the top of their career with the most experience and the most to lose would be too frightened to rock the boat. It's the exact opposite to how it should be. The professionals in a healthy society have influence as a product of some competence, especially when talking about their domain. However, as you note, this class is being trimmed away from competence by a systematic pressure . It is also being expanded away from competence by a borked credential system that issues paper in faux disciplines
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Post by zanygame on May 14, 2023 10:55:59 GMT
Oh oh, you said coloured instead of people of colourNever mind that you were clearly defending them. The pendulum needs to swing back to the middle, my fear is that if we keep pushing this end down, when it swings back it will go right back the other way. You have done a good job here choosing an uncontroversial example. It needs to be uncontroversial because the issue isn't really the thing itself. Such rules have an organisational effect - They select for those who care little for reality and a lot for appearance, those who will repeat what they are told to repeat and feel no embarrassment They select against those who insist on talking plainly and honestly and try to build genuine trust with others. What we are seeing now is this subtle social policy bearing fruit. Along with lefties like me saying enough, its become nonsense and harmful. If it were just people asking for the right to discriminate based on colour or religion I would say we were about the right place.
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on May 14, 2023 10:58:57 GMT
There was a good point mentioned on LBC the other day. It was said that after many examples of people in professional careers losing their careers over the slightest of things, like say non-PC, a minor criminal offence or even a police caution, that the only people who can afford to protest are those living outside of the system. They would be like say the unemployable or maybe the min wagers. Therefore even if we did have a government who reacted to protest in a vaguely democratic way, the people protesting are hardly likely to be the kind of people who could add anything intelligent to the debate on how we run the country. Those at the top of their career with the most experience and the most to lose would be too frightened to rock the boat. It's the exact opposite to how it should be. The professionals in a healthy society have influence as a product of some competence, especially when talking about their domain. However, as you note, this class is being trimmed away from competence by a systematic pressure . It is also being expanded away from competence by a borked credential system that issues paper in faux disciplines It reminds me of a neighbour of mine. She charges £90/hr for consultations on herbal medicine on the strength of an accredited BSc. It's the modern day witch doctor, but people must be really desperate regarding the NHS where you get treatment for free. I find things like this upsetting that we are so misled. They had these kind of practices in the Middle Ages.
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Post by Orac on May 14, 2023 11:28:59 GMT
You have done a good job here choosing an uncontroversial example. It needs to be uncontroversial because the issue isn't really the thing itself. Such rules have an organisational effect - They select for those who care little for reality and a lot for appearance, those who will repeat what they are told to repeat and feel no embarrassment They select against those who insist on talking plainly and honestly and try to build genuine trust with others. What we are seeing now is this subtle social policy bearing fruit. Along with lefties like me saying enough, its become nonsense and harmful. If it were just people asking for the right to discriminate based on colour or religion I would say we were about the right place. Okay - this is going to be no fun at all if we keep agreeing with each other. Your intuitive position is not significantly different from mine. However, there is a large problem with your position. Because 'discrimination' is largely a subjective matter, for you to get your way there needs to be a set of empirically enforceable rules about what discrimination is. If someone told you that this rule you have just highlighted as silly, wasn't silly, but was entirely necessary - and that people who use the wrong terminology here are engaging a coded aggression against black people, how would you argue l ogically that this was not the case? How would you defend yourself from a charge of racism for using the wrong terminology? The only mechanism you would have is that of trust - you would be asking your accusers to trust your character. Notice that we are now operating completely outside the bounds of anything that can be demonstrated empirically and that you are now at risk. Further, if we are to do you want and apply an official standard, we need an army of 'experts' whose jobs is to define, identify and adjudicate discrimination. These experts are not at all interested in a common sense interpretation - their interests will line up with making the rules as obtuse as a possible so that more discrimination can be found and they can be paid to solve an 'ever increasing problem'. This is some significant fraction how we ended up where we are - there is more though.
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Post by zanygame on May 14, 2023 11:56:35 GMT
The professionals in a healthy society have influence as a product of some competence, especially when talking about their domain. However, as you note, this class is being trimmed away from competence by a systematic pressure . It is also being expanded away from competence by a borked credential system that issues paper in faux disciplines It reminds me of a neighbour of mine. She charges £90/hr for consultations on herbal medicine on the strength of an accredited BSc. It's the modern day witch doctor, but people must be really desperate regarding the NHS where you get treatment for free. I find things like this upsetting that we are so misled. They had these kind of practices in the Middle Ages. To quote Tim Minchin. Do you know what they call "alternative medicines" that have been tested....."Medicines".
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