|
|
Post by besoeker3 on May 11, 2023 14:03:52 GMT
So can you offer an explanation as to why they are so incompetent? How exactly could you fix it? I think it is almost impossible to fix, as per it is a cultural problem. Remember News of the World? They were a bunch of utterly corrupt bastards as well. There was only one solution there and that was to shut the entire thing down. Similar cultural problems exist in the BBC and in the police. You can't fire just the head. You just get the next one in line as the last. I don't think the News of the World is in the same league. |
|
|
|
Post by Baron von Lotsov on May 11, 2023 22:47:58 GMT
I think it is almost impossible to fix, as per it is a cultural problem. Remember News of the World? They were a bunch of utterly corrupt bastards as well. There was only one solution there and that was to shut the entire thing down. Similar cultural problems exist in the BBC and in the police. You can't fire just the head. You just get the next one in line as the last. I don't think the News of the World is in the same league. No it isn't, but still it would have been impossible to reform it short of sacking everyone. I think the problem is true for entire countries as well. This is why you have revolutions. If China still had the Qing Dynasty running it then it would likely be extremely backwards. They had to chuck it all out and start again with a new system from scratch and that did it and created a much better government culture. The trouble with revolutions is they do a lot of damage and building a country from scratch take a long time. Same with the Metropolitan Police. If you had to train new staff from nothing you would have a seriously hefty bill, so they don't do that but do some bullshit fix that never works. Our country does bullshit fixes all the time. Like major banks, they are too big to fail. |
|
|
|
Post by zanygame on May 12, 2023 6:01:14 GMT
I don't think the News of the World is in the same league. No it isn't, but still it would have been impossible to reform it short of sacking everyone. I think the problem is true for entire countries as well. This is why you have revolutions. If China still had the Qing Dynasty running it then it would likely be extremely backwards. They had to chuck it all out and start again with a new system from scratch and that did it and created a much better government culture. The trouble with revolutions is they do a lot of damage and building a country from scratch take a long time. Same with the Metropolitan Police. If you had to train new staff from nothing you would have a seriously hefty bill, so they don't do that but do some bullshit fix that never works. Our country does bullshit fixes all the time. Like major banks, they are too big to fail. Agreed, but why does the brave change need to be everything at once? And also, despite its inefficiencies most people would rather live in a Western democracy than anywhere else. That's part of the reason we don't have revolution. |
|
|
|
Post by Orac on May 12, 2023 9:09:53 GMT
I think the issue is there is no such thing as a stable solution to power
Democracy can be good for while - until the inevitable corruption makes it malfunction
Technocratic dictatorship can be good for while - until the inevitable corruption makes it malfunction
The west seems to be moving quickly from democracy to technocratic dictatorship. The core catalyst for the change seems to be a borked education system
|
|
|
|
Post by Baron von Lotsov on May 12, 2023 11:03:06 GMT
No it isn't, but still it would have been impossible to reform it short of sacking everyone. I think the problem is true for entire countries as well. This is why you have revolutions. If China still had the Qing Dynasty running it then it would likely be extremely backwards. They had to chuck it all out and start again with a new system from scratch and that did it and created a much better government culture. The trouble with revolutions is they do a lot of damage and building a country from scratch take a long time. Same with the Metropolitan Police. If you had to train new staff from nothing you would have a seriously hefty bill, so they don't do that but do some bullshit fix that never works. Our country does bullshit fixes all the time. Like major banks, they are too big to fail. Agreed, but why does the brave change need to be everything at once? And also, despite its inefficiencies most people would rather live in a Western democracy than anywhere else. That's part of the reason we don't have revolution. In the same way as disinfesting a building of covid. One person who remains will introduce that culture back in again.
See the staff as wishing to be lazy and cheating. If one does, another wants to as well. Yes you can maybe leave one person behind that you think is ultra trustworthy, but the reform is costing you a fortune and you can't take the risk that you are not being simply deceived.
|
|
|
|
Post by Orac on May 12, 2023 12:02:15 GMT
There is no doubt in my mind that a system can become so corrupt that it wont allow itself to be reformed. One notion behind a democracy is that elected have so much power, no such machinery can withstand it. The establishment have been careful to place (say) courts and bodies in position so the elected are more or less subject to their rule.
|
|
|
|
Post by Baron von Lotsov on May 12, 2023 12:26:23 GMT
There is no doubt in my mind that a system can become so corrupt that it wont allow itself to be reformed. One notion behind a democracy is that elected have so much power, no such machinery can withstand it. The establishment have been careful to place (say) courts and bodies in position so the elected are more or less subject to their rule. They tried to reform Greater Manchester Police. It was considered a failing force and the government wanted results. I have a report here by Cheannel 4. There is a witness about 3m into the video which explains what happened after these reforms took place.
|
|
|
|
Post by Orac on May 12, 2023 13:13:27 GMT
I don't think a full technocratic dictatorship is going to work in the uk - it will just be stopped in a bloodbath.
|
|
|
|
Post by zanygame on May 12, 2023 17:49:01 GMT
Agreed, but why does the brave change need to be everything at once? And also, despite its inefficiencies most people would rather live in a Western democracy than anywhere else. That's part of the reason we don't have revolution. In the same way as disinfesting a building of covid. One person who remains will introduce that culture back in again.
See the staff as wishing to be lazy and cheating. If one does, another wants to as well. Yes you can maybe leave one person behind that you think is ultra trustworthy, but the reform is costing you a fortune and you can't take the risk that you are not being simply deceived.
You are talking of people rather than things. I am talking of things. Why the need to change democracy when you can change the parts that don't work |
|
|
|
Post by Baron von Lotsov on May 12, 2023 21:00:29 GMT
In the same way as disinfesting a building of covid. One person who remains will introduce that culture back in again.
See the staff as wishing to be lazy and cheating. If one does, another wants to as well. Yes you can maybe leave one person behind that you think is ultra trustworthy, but the reform is costing you a fortune and you can't take the risk that you are not being simply deceived.
You are talking of people rather than things. I am talking of things. Why the need to change democracy when you can change the parts that don't work All those people in Westminster, regardless of political colour, are stuffing us and laughing as they do. It's going to get worse as well. They are incompetent. Do you know there was a report that came out which predicted the UK will shortly lose 800 000 jobs in the motor industry? It is one of our largest industries. The cheating fuckwits have no idea things like this are about to happen. They are small-minded and focused on controlling the population and making them do exactly as they like them to do. Coming from a bunch of corrupt idiots this is worrying. Our international reputation is in tatters. Large firms are fleeing us as too unreliable. The people are poorly educated, immature and misinformed. They will just carry on picking the most convincing liar. |
|
|
|
Post by Orac on May 13, 2023 7:46:45 GMT
The elected are a mixed bunch - ranging from useless and corrupt to occasionally hard working and honest. The problem is in the unelected machine - which is why the elections make no odds.
I'm not against unelected machines on principle - in fact, they are probably a necessity. However, ours has been corrupted to such a degree it has become a self aware enemy of its host.
|
|
|
|
Post by zanygame on May 13, 2023 8:36:23 GMT
The elected are a mixed bunch - ranging from useless and corrupt to occasionally hard working and honest. The problem is in the unelected machine - which is why the elections make no odds. I'm not against unelected machines on principle - in fact, they are probably a necessity. However, ours has been corrupted to such a degree it has become a self aware enemy of its host. I don't think its a new phenomena. Those serving kings and tyrants were just as self serving as those serving politicians. The idea is that the politicians are hard working and honest, and that they are trusted enough to be believed when they whistle blow. |
|
|
|
Post by Orac on May 13, 2023 9:20:41 GMT
The elected are a mixed bunch - ranging from useless and corrupt to occasionally hard working and honest. The problem is in the unelected machine - which is why the elections make no odds. I'm not against unelected machines on principle - in fact, they are probably a necessity. However, ours has been corrupted to such a degree it has become a self aware enemy of its host. I don't think its a new phenomena. Those serving kings and tyrants were just as self serving as those serving politicians. The idea is that the politicians are hard working and honest, and that they are trusted enough to be believed when they whistle blow. It certainly isn't new. Rulers have easily been as corrupt as they are now and the afflicted host societies have sometimes slumped over and disintegrated because there was no suitable internal oppositional force to administer a correction. I imagine the crazy days leading up to the fall of Rome were quite similar - the intelligent could see they were in a cul de sac but there was just no longer any way to get the reverse gear selected. The uk has recently had a quite a charmed existence in terms of corruption and that may ironically be a weakness. We have not seen this sort of thing in centuries and so we don't have any antibodies. |
|
|
|
Post by zanygame on May 13, 2023 9:59:36 GMT
I don't think its a new phenomena. Those serving kings and tyrants were just as self serving as those serving politicians. The idea is that the politicians are hard working and honest, and that they are trusted enough to be believed when they whistle blow. It certainly isn't new. Rulers have easily been as corrupt as they are now and the afflicted host societies have sometimes slumped over and disintegrated because there was no suitable internal oppositional force to administer a correction. I imagine the crazy days leading up to the fall of Rome were quite similar - the intelligent could see they were in a cul de sac but there was just no longer any way to get the reverse gear selected. The uk has recently had a quite a charmed existence in terms of corruption and that may ironically be a weakness. We have not seen this sort of thing in centuries and so we don't have any antibodies. There are too many reasons leading to the fall of Rome, to call that one. Over expansion and the spread of Malaria to name but two. Not sure what you refer to by a charmed existence, but the one thing democracy has is the ability to say enough is enough. As we are currently seeing. The Tories are claiming they are unfairly catching the blame for our economic woes, but everyone Tory I speak to blames it on the almost endless list of bribes, law breaking and cronyism. |
|
|
|
Post by Orac on May 13, 2023 10:51:10 GMT
It certainly isn't new. Rulers have easily been as corrupt as they are now and the afflicted host societies have sometimes slumped over and disintegrated because there was no suitable internal oppositional force to administer a correction. I imagine the crazy days leading up to the fall of Rome were quite similar - the intelligent could see they were in a cul de sac but there was just no longer any way to get the reverse gear selected. The uk has recently had a quite a charmed existence in terms of corruption and that may ironically be a weakness. We have not seen this sort of thing in centuries and so we don't have any antibodies. There are too many reasons leading to the fall of Rome, to call that one. Over expansion and the spread of Malaria to name but two. Not sure what you refer to by a charmed existence, but the one thing democracy has is the ability to say enough is enough. As we are currently seeing. The Tories are claiming they are unfairly catching the blame for our economic woes, but everyone Tory I speak to blames it on the almost endless list of bribes, law breaking and cronyism. There are entire libraries of books written about the details and theories of the fall of Rome, but it is generally agreed that leadership corruption featured as very instrumental. Many Romans themselves were likely aware they were heading for a cliff, but had lost the power to reverse. I reiterate - the main problem here isn't the elected portions of our government because those have been substantially supplanted by bureaucratic power that has long term policy positions (something they really shouldn't have in a democracy) If you doubt what I'm saying perhaps you could speculate on the large changes away from the current, long term route you see as likely with any new elected administration? Edit to add.. Actually, i have a better way to illustrate this. Present a list of substantial policy initiatives that might feasibly be voted for by the British public, and I will tell which ones be allowed by the actual government
Just to clarify - I'm not strictly speaking a populist. I realise that, to some degree, this is they way things have to work. My position is not that we shouldn't have elites, it is that our elites have become rancid and corrupt and need to cleared out.
|
|
