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Post by B0ycey on Oct 26, 2022 7:12:58 GMT
The FSA wasn't a regulator, I have said that countless times now. They were an authority the same way the police are an authority who also doesn't make the laws they enforce either who made sure what little regulation there was was in the banking sector was being enforced. They just made sure the banks kept their finances in order, kept to a fractional reserve, no cowboys like leeson doing the rounds and made sure their assets were the precieved value to what the banks claimed they were. The problem was the rules they were enforcing weren't good enough because Thatcher deregulated the sector and it became a hive of cowboys in the two decades beforehand. The FSA failed in the sense that the checks and balances weren't there. As for Brown and Blair re regulating the sector... like Major before then, sure they should have. But nobody knew what type of bubble Thacther had set up for us. I guess you need to know there is a problem before it can be fixed. So the person who was to blame was not those who decided on what the regulations would be and how they would be enforced during the preceding decade but someone who had been out of office for almost 20 years?.. Hmm.... somehow I get the feeling that you will say/do anything to excuse Crash Gordons role in this fiasco.  Next you will be telling us it was Thatchers fault that we started a war in Iraq and nothing at all to do with New Labour.. As I said to Equivocal, Brown should have regulated the sector but I guess he was naive into thinking the good times were never going to end. Still doesn't mean that Thatcher wasn't to blame. She was the lady who set the pins up to be knocked down. |
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Post by sheepy on Oct 26, 2022 7:20:59 GMT
Indeed Vinny. I'm no Tory, but Sunak is the only person who understands the problem the UK is in right now. This mess started before Truss it should be said. We borrowed unsustainable levels with Covid and that borrowing was going to continue under Truss meaning it spooked the market. Now it is about balancing the books. There are some tough calls to make and it doesn't necessarily mean Austerity. But if we want the services we all expect, I expect tax rises at the very least. Hows about those on furlough pay the free money they got back, now they are working again? You should worry Barony, all that proved was 90% of the population were a pointless entity. |
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Post by B0ycey on Oct 26, 2022 7:24:33 GMT
Indeed Vinny. I'm no Tory, but Sunak is the only person who understands the problem the UK is in right now. This mess started before Truss it should be said. We borrowed unsustainable levels with Covid and that borrowing was going to continue under Truss meaning it spooked the market. Now it is about balancing the books. There are some tough calls to make and it doesn't necessarily mean Austerity. But if we want the services we all expect, I expect tax rises at the very least. Hows about those on furlough pay the free money they got back, now they are working again? How about Johnson not shutting down the economy to begin with dickhead? Never supported Furlough Baron but that is because I never supported lockdowns. But once you made that decision and prevent people from working, you have to pay their wages. So no, those on furlough shouldn't give their money back. But the next time a virus that kills mainly the elderly comes about we advise them to stay indoors until the things rips through and not ask those who don't show symptoms to have a three month holiday. |
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Post by thomas on Oct 26, 2022 7:30:26 GMT
I had a long exchange with another poster on this forum's predecessor covering this issue. I'm afraid the effect of the font size and shape on my eyes will preclude me from entering into a similar exchange here. From my perspective, the idea of 'exploiting' the potential of the market to produce tax revenues for investment in public services was sound, and very much needed at the time. However, the risks taken to bring the idea to fruition were reckless and Brown should (and has to an extent) accept responsibility for his role in the resulting crisis.
Briefly then; the FSMA of 2000 did, in fact, confer rule/regulation making powers on the FSA. Sir Howard Davies, chair of the FSA at the time, gave a speech in 2002 warning of the dangers of synthetic CDOs (the main culprit in spreading the risk through the banks) and stated quite clearly that the regulator would be taking a heightened interest in their progress in the markets. Despite this stated intent, the market in and holdings of CDOs and synthetc CDOs grew exponentially between 2000 and 2008 resulting in the GFC and the collapse/near collapse of the UK's banking sector. Given the FSA appeared to be aware of the risks, but failed to act. The only reasonable conclusion (or so it seems to me) is that the claims made by the FSA and set out in Lord Turner's report that Brown insisted on light touch regulation and prevented the FSA from regulating properly must be true. I think it's fair to say Brown's subsequent, shall we say partial, admissions appear to bolster the point. As to the argument it was a world-wide phenomenon and there was nothing government or regulators could have done; it's simply not true. Both the Canadian and Australian financial systems were better regulated and did not suffer the same fate as the USA and much of Europe. I am willing to accept that warnings were being made and that Brown ignored them Equivocal. I guess given the finance is the biggest sector in the economy and we were in a boom period, like in 1929 nobody thought the bubble was bursting anytime soon and the lobbyists were wining and dining our leaders to go along with it all. But like all bubbles when it pops it pops. And sure Brown preferred low regulation, it seems every Chancellor does. And as Brown was in charge at the time, there are those who blame him and perhaps rightly so. If the crash happened when Osborne was Chancellor, he would deserve the blame instead because those who led always take the responsibility. But at the same time we all need to understand why the crash occurred. Yanky mortgages, toxic loans and Thatchers deregulation. There was nothing Brown did that contributed to the crash. As long as we both agree on that, I will accept he should have brought in the checks and balances before the crash and not after. sorry boycey , but i think equivocal gave a pretty fair and honest post which is particualrly damning to brown and new labour.
You keep talking about thatchers deregulation. New labour and blair/brown had thriteen years to do something about it , but you keep throwing the blame at her door. Brown did contribute to the crash and so did new labour.
im sorry but again you let selective rose tinted glasses cloud your view on the matter.
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Post by sheepy on Oct 26, 2022 7:38:03 GMT
Hows about those on furlough pay the free money they got back, now they are working again? How about Johnson not shutting down the economy to begin with dickhead? Never supported Furlough Baron but that is because I never supported lockdowns. But once you made that decision and prevent people from working, you have to pay their wages. So no, those on furlough shouldn't give their money back. But the next time a virus that kills mainly the elderly comes about we advise them to stay indoors until the things rips through and not ask those who don't show symptoms to have a three month holiday. Funny then that when we said it was going to happen he openly denied it, with arrogantly saying we are not going into recession followed with even if we are, I have placed us in the best position to face one. Lying Bastard. Gordon Brown and Boris that is. |
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Post by B0ycey on Oct 26, 2022 7:45:02 GMT
I am willing to accept that warnings were being made and that Brown ignored them Equivocal. I guess given the finance is the biggest sector in the economy and we were in a boom period, like in 1929 nobody thought the bubble was bursting anytime soon and the lobbyists were wining and dining our leaders to go along with it all. But like all bubbles when it pops it pops. And sure Brown preferred low regulation, it seems every Chancellor does. And as Brown was in charge at the time, there are those who blame him and perhaps rightly so. If the crash happened when Osborne was Chancellor, he would deserve the blame instead because those who led always take the responsibility. But at the same time we all need to understand why the crash occurred. Yanky mortgages, toxic loans and Thatchers deregulation. There was nothing Brown did that contributed to the crash. As long as we both agree on that, I will accept he should have brought in the checks and balances before the crash and not after. sorry boycey , but i think equivocal gave a pretty fair and honest post which is particualrly damning to brown and new labour.
You keep talking about thatchers deregulation. New labour and blair/brown had thriteen years to do something about it , but you keep throwing the blame at her door. Brown did contribute to the crash and so did new labour.
im sorry but again you let selective rose tinted glasses cloud your view on the matter.
I guess it depends on what side of the political side you sit on Thomas. If you want me to say that Brown should have regulated the sector before and not after the crash, then sure blame Brown. But in my opinion once Thatcher deregulated the sector it got ran by cowboys and the damage was already done before Brown became PM. Although really the real culprits for 2008 were the Yanks who sold us mortgages given to the unemployed on a promise of a great return. For some reason, that gets overlooked on British forums. |
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Post by Equivocal on Oct 26, 2022 7:50:49 GMT
I am willing to accept that warnings were being made and that Brown ignored them Equivocal. I guess given the finance is the biggest sector in the economy and we were in a boom period, like in 1929 nobody thought the bubble was bursting anytime soon and the lobbyists were wining and dining our leaders to go along with it all. But like all bubbles when it pops it pops. And sure Brown preferred low regulation, it seems every Chancellor does. And as Brown was in charge at the time, there are those who blame him and perhaps rightly so. If the crash happened when Osborne was Chancellor, he would deserve the blame instead because those who led always take the responsibility. But at the same time we all need to understand why the crash occurred. Yanky mortgages, toxic loans and Thatchers deregulation. There was nothing Brown did that contributed to the crash. As long as we both agree on that, I will accept he should have brought in the checks and balances before the crash and not after.Seems to be analogous to claiming Bolsonaro did nothing to contribute to the Brazilian death toll and people should understand the fault was with Freddie Laker and the Chinese. |
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Post by B0ycey on Oct 26, 2022 7:53:47 GMT
How about Johnson not shutting down the economy to begin with dickhead? Never supported Furlough Baron but that is because I never supported lockdowns. But once you made that decision and prevent people from working, you have to pay their wages. So no, those on furlough shouldn't give their money back. But the next time a virus that kills mainly the elderly comes about we advise them to stay indoors until the things rips through and not ask those who don't show symptoms to have a three month holiday. Funny then that when we said it was going to happen he openly denied it, with arrogantly saying we are not going into recession followed with even if we are, I have placed us in the best position to face one. Lying Bastard. Gordon Brown and Boris that is. One credit I will give to Johnson was he didn't jump on the bandwagon to begin with. He however lost that respect when he did. The truth is we now owe billions for Covid and the virus had a mortality rate of 0.3%... many of that 0.3% who were retired and could have easily self isolated. The reason Truss fucked up big was when the market looked at the borrowing we had and compared that to what was coming, it was clear the interest on loans was going to exceed overall spending and there was no plan to recoup that up with... ironically... growth. We should all accept that the Tories have now borrowed big and the idea they are more competent than Labour with the economy is a myth. |
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Post by thomas on Oct 26, 2022 8:03:19 GMT
sorry boycey , but i think equivocal gave a pretty fair and honest post which is particualrly damning to brown and new labour.
You keep talking about thatchers deregulation. New labour and blair/brown had thriteen years to do something about it , but you keep throwing the blame at her door. Brown did contribute to the crash and so did new labour.
im sorry but again you let selective rose tinted glasses cloud your view on the matter.
I guess it depends on what side of the political side you sit on Thomas thats part of my point. You are on the red side self admittedly , so it clouds your judgment where you see all the good labour do , and ignore the bad , but see all the bad tories do , but ignore the good. Im on neither side , so can take a fairer view.
and blair and the whole of labour.
Bollocks boycey. The reality is , since 1997 , with possible the corbyn interegnum , new labour in and out of government have pursued policies supporting and frantically propping up the lethally inflated property market , so much so , each of the three new labour administrations built far far less social housing than any of the conservative administrations that preceded them.
On top of that , when the snp tried to end the madness of right to buy in scotland , new labour were among the most vocal in attempting to stop them , with threats to oppose the snp policy at the then council level.
Brown blair and labour were a large part of the problem rather than the innocent bystanders who could do little to alleviate the so called damage already done as you try and spin.
this is another theme in many of your posts when dealing with labour criticism . its always someone else fault , never labours. Yanks tories anyone will do to take the heat of labours disasterous time in power which the scottish and english people are still paying for.
I have lost count the amount of times we have dealt with the 2008 financial crash , and labours large part in it , over the years.
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Post by B0ycey on Oct 26, 2022 8:16:26 GMT
I guess it depends on what side of the political side you sit on Thomas thats part of my point. You are on the red side self admittedly , so it clouds your judgment where you see all the good labour do , and ignore the bad , but see all the bad tories do , but ignore the good. Im on neither side , so can take a fairer view.
and blair and the whole of labour.
Bollocks boycey. The reality is , since 1997 , with possible the corbyn interegnum , new labour in and out of government have pursued policies supporting and frantically propping up the lethally inflated property market , so much so , each of the three new labour administrations built far far less social housing than any of the conservative administrations that preceded them.
On top of that , when the snp tried to end the madness of right to buy in scotland , new labour were among the most vocal in attempting to stop them , with threats to oppose the snp policy at the then council level.
Brown blair and labour were a large part of the problem rather than the innocent bystanders who could do little to alleviate the so called damage already done as you try and spin.
this is another theme in many of your posts when dealing with labour criticism . its always someone else fault , never labours. Yanks tories anyone will do to take the heat of labours disasterous time in power which the scottish and english people are still paying for.
I have lost count the amount of times we have dealt with the 2008 financial crash , and labours large part in it , over the years.
Maybe my hate for the Tories does cloud my judgement Thomas. I don't usually blame Thatcher when discussing this subject on other forums in the past given the mess was created by the Yanks but I have on here to explain why we as a nation got ourselves in such a mess. It was a global phenomenon anyway so to blame Labour is a bit of a punt in my option anyway. But whatever, we are never going to agree here and by and large Brown was regarded as the saviour of the world market not just our own by coming up with QE. I accept that he should have regulated the sector before the crash, but even so, because the dangerous practices which had no doubt already taken place, it may have stopped nothing if he had but only the size of the bailout. |
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Post by thomas on Oct 26, 2022 8:46:12 GMT
thats part of my point. You are on the red side self admittedly , so it clouds your judgment where you see all the good labour do , and ignore the bad , but see all the bad tories do , but ignore the good. Im on neither side , so can take a fairer view.
and blair and the whole of labour.
Bollocks boycey. The reality is , since 1997 , with possible the corbyn interegnum , new labour in and out of government have pursued policies supporting and frantically propping up the lethally inflated property market , so much so , each of the three new labour administrations built far far less social housing than any of the conservative administrations that preceded them.
On top of that , when the snp tried to end the madness of right to buy in scotland , new labour were among the most vocal in attempting to stop them , with threats to oppose the snp policy at the then council level.
Brown blair and labour were a large part of the problem rather than the innocent bystanders who could do little to alleviate the so called damage already done as you try and spin.
this is another theme in many of your posts when dealing with labour criticism . its always someone else fault , never labours. Yanks tories anyone will do to take the heat of labours disasterous time in power which the scottish and english people are still paying for.
I have lost count the amount of times we have dealt with the 2008 financial crash , and labours large part in it , over the years.
Maybe my hate for the Tories does cloud my judgement Thomas. I don't usually blame Thatcher when discussing this subject on other forums in the past. i think it does. You cant go on doing the same thing over and over , accusing the tories , often rightly so , but ignoring labour doing the same , and expecting a different result in the world of uk politics. You need a clear dividing line in politics , not two parties doing the exact same thing with the only difference being the colour of the rosette.
You as a left winger , much surely see we have reached the point in your yookay politics where succesive labour leaders since the late 80`s with the exception of corbyn , can stand at a labour party conference announcing he isnt a red without party members not reaching for the pitchforks , and proudly boasting to enace tory policies is surley a terrible thing for democracy. Defending brown and blairs record in office is all part of the meltdown we are witnessing before our eyes.
The mess in the uk wasnt created by the yanks. It was created here , with events in america being the catalyst for the house of cards tumbling . New labour bankrupted the uk not the USA.
The uk isnt a nation , and as you should know fine well , scotlands housing market is completely different to Englands . Many of the choices we have made , in terms of the likes of right to buy , are in a deep and sharp contrast to labours during their time in power in england.
Equivocal has articulated this far more elequently than i could. Again , you throw in a casual blaming of something other rather than coming to grips with labours culpability in bankrupting the UK.
That much of a saviour that the good people of the uk union kicked him out of power in 2010 with one of the lowest shares of votes in labour parties history , and my cousin used to live in his old constituency of kirkcaldy and cowdenbeath , and said that if brown hadnt of jumped when he did the residents would have pushed him , he was that hated.
The man is despised across scotland and the rUK. Shocking chancellor and even worse prime minister.
sorry not with you here.
the simple fact is new labour must share the blame for the 2008 financial crises.
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Post by B0ycey on Oct 26, 2022 10:56:28 GMT
It isn't like I am Brown's biggest fan given I have said before I consider him and Blair Tories (Thatchers biggest achievement) thomas. But if you blame Brown it is simply due to inaction. If you blame Thatcher it is because of action. Labour were in power during 2008 and as such have always had the blame associated to them. I would rather look at how the problem came about and that always leads me to the Yanks. Then I look at how we managed to buy their crappy mortgages and that leads me to Thatcher. I could also blame HBOS for making itself too big to fail by buying every single bank that was on offer. I could also blame Northern Rock for doing the yanky doodle and giving mortgages to anyone with 5p in their account. There is a number of things that went wrong but Brown wasn't the catalyst of it but the guy who ignored the signs due to ignorance. But whatever, Brown sold the gold at rock bottom prices so was a cunt for that. I can't be arse to defend cunts so OK, whatever, Crash Gordon. As for right to buy in Scotland, the house I bought was bought by right to buy from the previous owners so if the system is different I don't know how. I know they had to do a funny form/booklet telling me what was wrong with the house that I didn't need to do in England so I am aware that is different but if right to buy is different what are the differences? Also I am against right to buy given we have a housing crisis. So if Scotland has stopped that or changed it, then good. By and large I think the SNP are the best party in terms of policy and that if is the case they have changed right to buy then it is a another sign they know what they are doing. As for Labour bankrupting the UK, it didn't given it used QE rather than an IMF bailout. But if I was going to blame anyone for "bankrupting" the nation it would be the bankers anyway and they got away with cowboy antics due to Thatchers Big Bang. |
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Post by thomas on Oct 26, 2022 11:41:33 GMT
It isn't like I am Brown's biggest fan given I have said before I consider him and Blair Tories (Thatchers biggest achievement) thomas . But if you blame Brown it is simply due to inaction. If you blame Thatcher it is because of action. Labour were in power during 2008 and as such have always had the blame associated to them. I would rather look at how the problem came about and that always leads me to the Yanks. Then I look at how we managed to buy their crappy mortgages and that leads me to Thatcher. I could also blame HBOS for making itself too big to fail by buying every single bank that was on offer. I could also blame Northern Rock for doing the yanky doodle and giving mortgages to anyone with 5p in their account. There is a number of things that went wrong but Brown wasn't the catalyst of it but the guy who ignored the signs due to ignorance. But whatever, Brown sold the gold at rock bottom prices so was a cunt for that. I can't be arse to defend cunts so OK, whatever, Crash Gordon. i didnt say brown was the catalyst , i said the americans were the catalyst that triggered the flaws in the uk system that thatcher major blair and brown had built. Sorry if i misjudge your words, but you seem intent on flagging up "others" to blame while trying at best to ignore labours culpability in the 2008 financial crash , at worst wriggling on a hook when confronted with evidence.
Moving on from these oft repeated and oft debunked labour party myths of blaming eveyone else but crash gordon and tory blair , if labour ever want to regain power , thenthey would be wise to distance themselves from these toxic individuals.
Keir starmer is clearly determined to emulate them.
you are mixing two things up here.
The right to buy system was ended in the summer of 2016 in scotland. I belive its still running in england? Labour in scotland bitterly and loudly opposed it and still do as far as im aware.
Secondly , you arent aware of the complete difference between the scottish legal system and house buying system compared to england yet have bought a house in scotland?
no matter how many times you defend them boycey , everyone knows new labour bankrupted the uk and fought an illegal war.
They didnt invent the sub prime mortgage market , its true , but they were among the biggest cheerleaders of it in order to sustain a housing bubble for a few more years with imaginary blairite money.
Labour as we see at every level of governance in every country of the yookay cannot be trusted with public money. westher its croydon glasgow or liverpool , devolved government at holyrood or cardiff , of westmisnter , their record of tax and wastefully spend is indefensible.
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Post by B0ycey on Oct 26, 2022 11:59:05 GMT
It isn't like I am Brown's biggest fan given I have said before I consider him and Blair Tories (Thatchers biggest achievement) thomas . But if you blame Brown it is simply due to inaction. If you blame Thatcher it is because of action. Labour were in power during 2008 and as such have always had the blame associated to them. I would rather look at how the problem came about and that always leads me to the Yanks. Then I look at how we managed to buy their crappy mortgages and that leads me to Thatcher. I could also blame HBOS for making itself too big to fail by buying every single bank that was on offer. I could also blame Northern Rock for doing the yanky doodle and giving mortgages to anyone with 5p in their account. There is a number of things that went wrong but Brown wasn't the catalyst of it but the guy who ignored the signs due to ignorance. But whatever, Brown sold the gold at rock bottom prices so was a cunt for that. I can't be arse to defend cunts so OK, whatever, Crash Gordon. i didnt say brown was the catalyst , i said the americans were the catalyst that triggered the flaws in the uk system that thatcher major blair and brown had built. Sorry if i misjudge your words, but you seem intent on flagging up "others" to blame while trying at best to ignore labours culpability in the 2008 financial crash , at worst wriggling on a hook when confronted with evidence.
Moving on from these oft repeated and oft debunked labour party myths of blaming eveyone else but crash gordon and tory blair , if labour ever want to regain power , thenthey would be wise to distance themselves from these toxic individuals.
Keir starmer is clearly determined to emulate them.
you are mixing two things up here.
The right to buy system was ended in the summer of 2016 in scotland. I belive its still running in england? Labour in scotland bitterly and loudly opposed it and still do as far as im aware.
Secondly , you arent aware of the complete difference between the scottish legal system and house buying system compared to england yet have bought a house in scotland?
no matter how many times you defend them boycey , everyone knows new labour bankrupted the uk and fought an illegal war.
They didnt invent the sub prime mortgage market , its true , but they were among the biggest cheerleaders of it in order to sustain a housing bubble for a few more years with imaginary blairite money.
Labour as we see at every level of governance in every country of the yookay cannot be trusted with public money. westher its croydon glasgow or liverpool , devolved government at holyrood or cardiff , of westmisnter , their record of tax and wastefully spend is indefensible.
I am aware there are different systems Thomas between Scotland and England but I am not aware of the differences in minor detail except in tax. That is your area of expertise not mine. All I will say is if right to buy in Scotland is over, then the SNP have done the right thing. Social housing is terrible in England when I compare to my adulthood to that of my parents. That is something else I blame Thatcher for and despite my parents buying their own home from Right to Buy, they were also against the system knowing too well what the end result was for their children (ie me). As for Brown, OK fine I agree. He isn't blameless as he was inactive. He had the power to change course and didn't use it until the bubble burst. I also agree that Blair is an utter cunt for his illegal war. I am most definitely blaming him for that. In fact every major problem we have today from refugees, destabilising the ME, world Peace, world order, security etc etc etc came from Blair and Bush. Although it should be said the main fault of that was the Yanks as well. Blair was just just poodle but a cunt poodle. |
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Post by thomas on Oct 26, 2022 12:02:49 GMT
i didnt say brown was the catalyst , i said the americans were the catalyst that triggered the flaws in the uk system that thatcher major blair and brown had built. Sorry if i misjudge your words, but you seem intent on flagging up "others" to blame while trying at best to ignore labours culpability in the 2008 financial crash , at worst wriggling on a hook when confronted with evidence.
Moving on from these oft repeated and oft debunked labour party myths of blaming eveyone else but crash gordon and tory blair , if labour ever want to regain power , thenthey would be wise to distance themselves from these toxic individuals.
Keir starmer is clearly determined to emulate them.
you are mixing two things up here.
The right to buy system was ended in the summer of 2016 in scotland. I belive its still running in england? Labour in scotland bitterly and loudly opposed it and still do as far as im aware.
Secondly , you arent aware of the complete difference between the scottish legal system and house buying system compared to england yet have bought a house in scotland?
no matter how many times you defend them boycey , everyone knows new labour bankrupted the uk and fought an illegal war.
They didnt invent the sub prime mortgage market , its true , but they were among the biggest cheerleaders of it in order to sustain a housing bubble for a few more years with imaginary blairite money.
Labour as we see at every level of governance in every country of the yookay cannot be trusted with public money. westher its croydon glasgow or liverpool , devolved government at holyrood or cardiff , of westmisnter , their record of tax and wastefully spend is indefensible.
I am aware there are different systems Thomas between Scotland and England but I am not aware of the differences in minor detail except in tax. That is your area of expertise not mine. All I will say is if right to buy in Scotland is over, then the SNP have done the right thing. Social housing is terrible in England when I compare to my adulthood to that of my parents. That is something else I blame Thatcher for and despite my parents buying their own home from Right to Buy, they were also against the system knowing too well what the end result was for their children (ie me). again you blame the Devil incarnate Thatcher , but ignore the 13 years of new labour championing the right to buy scheme . Is starmer still commited to it?
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