|
|
Post by Orac on May 4, 2023 18:24:26 GMT
If such a state were to hand power to 'the people', it would go through a short chaotic period, fall apart and then things would be seized by another elite who attempted to restore order. I feel you are barely an inch from enlightenment now lol The State won't just hand power to the people. It will occur by a process of evolution, whereby capitalist society will become more socialist over time (as has been steadily happening since the inception of capitalism.) I guess you have to believe in something. What you are actually describing is just a collapse. Successful societies almost inevitably fall prey to various forms of parasitism - the greater and more sustained the success the more powerful the incentive for corruption and parasitism becomes. Capitalism is pretty robust so it can sustain a lot off hangers on, but anything has limits and eventually (one day or other) the lunatics are allowed to get to the controls and then they erase themselves in a blast of self indulgence. It's like a circle of life thing. Best to stay philosophical. |
|
|
|
Post by Einhorn on May 4, 2023 18:57:57 GMT
Tell us about Jesus' nuclear family, Benny. This is why you are not on ignore. So I can see how toxic you are. I'm just trying to address Benny's concerns, Ned. Jesus didn't live with his biological father and he turned out okay. |
|
|
|
Post by Einhorn on May 4, 2023 18:58:44 GMT
The State won't just hand power to the people. It will occur by a process of evolution, whereby capitalist society will become more socialist over time (as has been steadily happening since the inception of capitalism.) I guess you have to believe in something. What you are actually describing is just a collapse. Successful societies almost inevitably fall prey to various forms of parasitism - the greater and more sustained the success the more powerful the incentive for corruption and parasitism becomes. Capitalism is pretty robust so it can sustain a lot off hangers on, but anything has limits and eventually (one day or other) the lunatics are allowed to get to the controls and then they erase themselves in a blast of self indulgence. It's like a circle of life thing. Best to stay philosophical. Yeah, but you predict the collapse of society at least once a week, Mags. |
|
|
|
Post by sandypine on May 4, 2023 19:08:37 GMT
A believer? I am just trying to get a grip on what is being discussed and it seems as though neither Marxism or Capitalism has ever existed in the forms defined. What is clear is that both Marx and Capitalism have inspired societies to seek to be either one with varying degrees of success. Marx inspired societies tend to have a hatred for some elements in society and the same is true of Capitalism. The difference being I believe that Capitalist inspired societies, as sometimes manifested, will let people die through lack of care, Marxist inspired societies tend to actively seek out people to kill Are you a believer? It seems a lot of those opposed to the Left take issue with their atheism. It's a relevant question. How is it relevant? I am not religious if that is the issue, my belief is of no fixed abode. |
|
|
|
Post by Einhorn on May 4, 2023 19:11:05 GMT
Are you a believer? It seems a lot of those opposed to the Left take issue with their atheism. It's a relevant question. How is it relevant? I am not religious if that is the issue, my belief is of no fixed abode. It's relevant because Marx was prone to saying things about religion and opium. The Bible bashers have never been able to find it in their hearts to forgive him for that. |
|
|
|
Post by sandypine on May 4, 2023 19:34:46 GMT
How is it relevant? I am not religious if that is the issue, my belief is of no fixed abode. It's relevant because Marx was prone to saying things about religion and opium. The Bible bashers have never been able to find it in their hearts to forgive him for that. The Scottish enlightenment was about 100 hundred years ahead of him but I suppose they were countering Scottish Presbyterianism which produced a pretty strict moral code. Marx put it more bluntly but then he was referring to organised religion and its many strictures. The problem is that many people like a sense of belonging and organised religion fills that need which pure politics can never do. In the end you are dealing with fickle human nature with its many idiosyncrasies |
|
|
|
Post by Orac on May 4, 2023 19:53:19 GMT
I guess you have to believe in something. What you are actually describing is just a collapse. Successful societies almost inevitably fall prey to various forms of parasitism - the greater and more sustained the success the more powerful the incentive for corruption and parasitism becomes. Capitalism is pretty robust so it can sustain a lot off hangers on, but anything has limits and eventually (one day or other) the lunatics are allowed to get to the controls and then they erase themselves in a blast of self indulgence. It's like a circle of life thing. Best to stay philosophical. Yeah, but you predict the collapse of society at least once a week, Mags. No. I just don't predict a worker's paradise. here are our options - 1) What Marx described as 'capitalistic' social organisation. 2) Top down (fascistic) social organisation 3) living hand-to-mouth in the woods |
|
|
|
Post by Einhorn on May 4, 2023 19:59:48 GMT
Yeah, but you predict the collapse of society at least once a week, Mags. No. I just don't predict a worker's paradise. here are our options - 1) What Marx described as 'capitalistic' social organisation. 2) Top down (fascistic) social organisation 3) living hand-to-mouth in the woods Where's the zombie apocalypse option? It's not like you to skimp on the mortal peril, Mags. |
|
|
|
Post by Pacifico on May 4, 2023 21:13:45 GMT
Well the first work pensions were introduced in the 1600's before Capitalism or Socialism even took off. What percentage of the population received a pension in the 1600s, Doc? Isn't it the case that the old age pension only came into existence for most people in the 20th Century, more than 120 years after the inception of capitalism? Another wonderful example of capitalism becoming progressively more socialist. Well either pensions are Socialist or they are not. The first retirement pensions were introduced by the Royal Navy in 1672 (sickness pensions were introduced almost a 100 years earlier) - who knew that the Admiralty was a hotbed of Socialists...  |
|
|
|
Post by Einhorn on May 4, 2023 22:08:08 GMT
What percentage of the population received a pension in the 1600s, Doc? Isn't it the case that the old age pension only came into existence for most people in the 20th Century, more than 120 years after the inception of capitalism? Another wonderful example of capitalism becoming progressively more socialist. Well either pensions are Socialist or they are not. The first retirement pensions were introduced by the Royal Navy in 1672 (sickness pensions were introduced almost a 100 years earlier) - who knew that the Admiralty was a hotbed of Socialists... Don't keep us in suspense, Doc. We're dying to know whether more than 0.01% of the population benefitted from this largesse. |
|
|
|
Post by Pacifico on May 5, 2023 6:40:25 GMT
Well either pensions are Socialist or they are not. The first retirement pensions were introduced by the Royal Navy in 1672 (sickness pensions were introduced almost a 100 years earlier) - who knew that the Admiralty was a hotbed of Socialists... Don't keep us in suspense, Doc. We're dying to know whether more than 0.01% of the population benefitted from this largesse. Right - so now you have finally admitted that improvements in working conditions are not necessarily socialist ideas (as I pointed out 3 days ago) do you have any other evidence that the world is becoming more socialist?. This is almost as daft (almost) as that thread where you were claiming that Transgender Women were real women was becoming more widely accepted - even as organisations across the globe were making moves to block them.. |
|
|
|
Post by sheepy on May 5, 2023 6:57:57 GMT
No. I just don't predict a worker's paradise. here are our options - 1) What Marx described as 'capitalistic' social organisation. 2) Top down (fascistic) social organisation 3) living hand-to-mouth in the woods Where's the zombie apocalypse option? It's not like you to skimp on the mortal peril, Mags. I guess it is already here, on a grand scale, but putting the socialists as the great world leaders who have brought great things to the world population and only the socialists is a bit of a step over the line into pure imagination, which somehow has been cast as doubtful. I would say it is pure imagination. |
|
|
|
Post by Orac on May 5, 2023 7:31:22 GMT
Darling believes there is a socialist worker's paradise at the end the universe
|
|
|
|
Post by Einhorn on May 5, 2023 7:33:50 GMT
Don't keep us in suspense, Doc. We're dying to know whether more than 0.01% of the population benefitted from this largesse. Right - so now you have finally admitted that improvements in working conditions are not necessarily socialist ideas (as I pointed out 3 days ago) do you have any other evidence that the world is becoming more socialist?. This is almost as daft (almost) as that thread where you were claiming that Transgender Women were real women was becoming more widely accepted - even as organisations across the globe were making moves to block them.. What percentage, Doc? More or less than 0.01%? |
|
|
|
Post by Einhorn on May 5, 2023 7:37:53 GMT
Darling believes there is a socialist worker's paradise at the end the universe I take it you also spent your childhood up a chimney, Mags. |
|
