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Post by Pacifico on May 5, 2023 6:32:39 GMT
OK - you say:
"Our culture though is our history...our sum of knowledge our sum of achievements our arts our language our literature and so many other undefinable components all of which are evolving....being added to all the time."
Where in the country is being made better by all these added achievements?
Because making the country a better place to live is surely the aim is it not?
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Post by thescotsman on May 5, 2023 8:44:15 GMT
OK - you say: "Our culture though is our history...our sum of knowledge our sum of achievements our arts our language our literature and so many other undefinable components all of which are evolving....being added to all the time."1) Where in the country is being made better by all these added achievements? - 2) Because making the country a better place to live is surely the aim is it not? - so on 1) above....look with all due respect are you conflating some self constructed notion of historical culture with modern zeitgeist? As I said I'm not a fan of all these fuckwits landing here with palms out expecting to be fed clothed and housed at the tax payers expense...fuck that....fuck them. But neither am I clinging to some long past notion of Britishness; being all maudlin and longing for days gone by viewed through rose tinted glasses:
The lies, and truths, and pain? ... oh! yet
Stands the Church clock at ten to three?
And is there honey still for tea?
And is there honey still for tea and will there still be leather on willow on the village green and will the larks still twist and turn over the white cliffs of Dover....time moves on and so does our store and source of "British" Culture. Mate, the biggest challenges I have seen to this "British culture" thing is the internet...American TV...Indian Take Aways...Notting Hill Carnivals....Prom....refrigeration...Malls...Datsun...Elvis Presley.... to name but a scintilla of influences, all an order of magnitude more impactful on "British culture" than a few darkies living in squallor. So once again from dear old Rupert...
I only know that you may lie
Day long and watch the Cambridge sky,
And, flower-lulled in sleepy grass,
Hear the cool lapse of hours pass,
Until the centuries blend and blur
In Grantchester, in Grantchester. ...
Fear ye not mate
anyway....2)...NO
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Post by sandypine on May 5, 2023 9:03:43 GMT
OK - you say: "Our culture though is our history...our sum of knowledge our sum of achievements our arts our language our literature and so many other undefinable components all of which are evolving....being added to all the time."1) Where in the country is being made better by all these added achievements? - 2) Because making the country a better place to live is surely the aim is it not? - so on 1) above....look with all due respect are you conflating some self constructed notion of historical culture with modern zeitgeist? As I said I'm not a fan of all these fuckwits landing here with palms out expecting to be fed clothed and housed at the tax payers expense...fuck that....fuck them. But neither am I clinging to some long past notion of Britishness; being all maudlin and longing for days gone by viewed through rose tinted glasses:
The lies, and truths, and pain? ... oh! yet
Stands the Church clock at ten to three?
And is there honey still for tea?
And is there honey still for tea and will there still be leather on willow on the village green and will the larks still twist and turn over the white cliffs of Dover....time moves on and so does our store and source of "British" Culture. Mate, the biggest challenges I have seen to this "British culture" thing is the internet...American TV...Indian Take Aways...Notting Hill Carnivals....Prom....refrigeration...Malls...Datsun...Elvis Presley.... to name but a scintilla of influences, all an order of magnitude more impactful on "British culture" than a few darkies living in squallor. So once again from dear old Rupert...
I only know that you may lie
Day long and watch the Cambridge sky,
And, flower-lulled in sleepy grass,
Hear the cool lapse of hours pass,
Until the centuries blend and blur
In Grantchester, in Grantchester. ...
Fear ye not mate
anyway....2)...NO
You have to get to grips with this, culture gives you memories you never had when something invokes that feeling. This is true for all cultures and in Scotland it is as true, if not more so, than anywhere else. Romantic ideals are important parts of a culture. Belittling or denigrating it even as it may fade away is not really a good look. I am Scottish but very much an Anglophile and I do find that the Lark Ascending is English through and through and those dreaming spires are as much a part of England that is being subsumed to the joy of many of my countrymen and even worse to the joy of some English people. Change is inevitable the problem lies in how much that change is planned and enforced and what is being imposed upon the English is effectively a damned disgrace, be warned Scotland will not be far behind in the 'first they came for...' stakes. |
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Post by see2 on May 5, 2023 9:10:24 GMT
OK - you say: "Our culture though is our history...our sum of knowledge our sum of achievements our arts our language our literature and so many other undefinable components all of which are evolving....being added to all the time."Where in the country is being made better by all these added achievements? Because making the country a better place to live is surely the aim is it not? 1. Maybe your first question should be addressed to the politicians. 2. I suspect the same sort of comments could have been heard when Huguenots, Walloons, Palatines, Irish and Jewish migrants along with others throughout the centuries arrived. Things don't look too bright at the moment but like Brexit, only time will tell the outcome. |
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Post by Orac on May 5, 2023 9:15:37 GMT
"If you object to attaching a heap of useless failed junk to something worthwhile and functional, then you must be living in the past."
It's part of the progressive mantra
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Post by thescotsman on May 5, 2023 9:31:13 GMT
so on 1) above....look with all due respect are you conflating some self constructed notion of historical culture with modern zeitgeist? As I said I'm not a fan of all these fuckwits landing here with palms out expecting to be fed clothed and housed at the tax payers expense...fuck that....fuck them. But neither am I clinging to some long past notion of Britishness; being all maudlin and longing for days gone by viewed through rose tinted glasses:
The lies, and truths, and pain? ... oh! yet
Stands the Church clock at ten to three?
And is there honey still for tea?
And is there honey still for tea and will there still be leather on willow on the village green and will the larks still twist and turn over the white cliffs of Dover....time moves on and so does our store and source of "British" Culture. Mate, the biggest challenges I have seen to this "British culture" thing is the internet...American TV...Indian Take Aways...Notting Hill Carnivals....Prom....refrigeration...Malls...Datsun...Elvis Presley.... to name but a scintilla of influences, all an order of magnitude more impactful on "British culture" than a few darkies living in squallor. So once again from dear old Rupert...
I only know that you may lie
Day long and watch the Cambridge sky,
And, flower-lulled in sleepy grass,
Hear the cool lapse of hours pass,
Until the centuries blend and blur
In Grantchester, in Grantchester. ...
Fear ye not mate
anyway....2)...NO
You have to get to grips with this, culture gives you memories you never had when something invokes that feeling. This is true for all cultures and in Scotland it is as true, if not more so, than anywhere else. Romantic ideals are important parts of a culture. Belittling or denigrating it even as it may fade away is not really a good look. I am Scottish but very much an Anglophile and I do find that the Lark Ascending is English through and through and those dreaming spires are as much a part of England that is being subsumed to the joy of many of my countrymen and even worse to the joy of some English people. Change is inevitable the problem lies in how much that change is planned and enforced and what is being imposed upon the English is effectively a damned disgrace, be warned Scotland will not be far behind in the 'first they came for...' stakes. Liked your message!
On the contrary. I'm not in the market to belittle or downplay or blackwash or change or bend spindle or mutilate anything out of our past present or future BUT...and this is the issue....what I do think is that we are where we are....if all these people that don't want immigrants arriving here and settling in Britain want them out...fine...then do something...advocate for change....get out and protest....make a difference...but don't hide that message behind some spurious comment about it killing (or whatever his phrase was) "British Culture" what he doesn't seem to want to comprehend what constitutes a culture. Or when or where or how it is garnered and how it intertwines into the psyche of the nation as a whole. Or how the sum of its parts allows it to be encompassed as a cultural aspect of the nation. Outsiders see part of the British culture as being one of fair play and tolerance....is that wrong....are they wrong....
Point being a culture is an evolving "thing" it moves with the time it assumes many guises and forms to match an individuals perception of what makes them what they are, so simply conflating "immigrants" and the "death of British culture" to me at least....is just a hamfisted use of language and pretty crass in the extreme...
Anyway...I liked your post!
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Post by bancroft on May 5, 2023 10:07:32 GMT
I have never come across a single place in the country where mass immigration has improved it. A cohesive population united by shared experience certainly had its problems in the past but injecting millions of outsiders who have no knowledge or interest the cultural heritage of the country certainly has not led to any improvements. Just the opposite. You must be wrong. Every time immigration was mentioned on the BBC popular debate programmes someone said immigration has enriched our country which was a cue for a brisk round of applause from the audience and fellow panelists to nod and concur when given the chance. I have to confess I have searched and struggled to find what enrichment they were referring to and mostly I have come to the same conclusion that 'enrichment' actually means degradation. Well you have your idealogues and then those often dealing with immigrants working in the NHS or Care industry. Money is the key thing many British women were put off these jobs by low wages and the new ones will be likely to support strike action |
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Post by Pacifico on May 5, 2023 10:59:57 GMT
OK - you say: "Our culture though is our history...our sum of knowledge our sum of achievements our arts our language our literature and so many other undefinable components all of which are evolving....being added to all the time."1) Where in the country is being made better by all these added achievements? - 2) Because making the country a better place to live is surely the aim is it not? - so on 1) above....look with all due respect are you conflating some self constructed notion of historical culture with modern zeitgeist? As I said I'm not a fan of all these fuckwits landing here with palms out expecting to be fed clothed and housed at the tax payers expense...fuck that....fuck them. But neither am I clinging to some long past notion of Britishness; being all maudlin and longing for days gone by viewed through rose tinted glasses:
The lies, and truths, and pain? ... oh! yet
Stands the Church clock at ten to three?
And is there honey still for tea?
And is there honey still for tea and will there still be leather on willow on the village green and will the larks still twist and turn over the white cliffs of Dover....time moves on and so does our store and source of "British" Culture. Mate, the biggest challenges I have seen to this "British culture" thing is the internet...American TV...Indian Take Aways...Notting Hill Carnivals....Prom....refrigeration...Malls...Datsun...Elvis Presley.... to name but a scintilla of influences, all an order of magnitude more impactful on "British culture" than a few darkies living in squallor. So once again from dear old Rupert...
I only know that you may lie
Day long and watch the Cambridge sky,
And, flower-lulled in sleepy grass,
Hear the cool lapse of hours pass,
Until the centuries blend and blur
In Grantchester, in Grantchester. ...
Fear ye not mate
anyway....2)...NO
So at the end of all that we just have you ranting on about 'darkies' and unable to give a single example of where mass immigration has made somewhere better. Perhaps you agreed with Labour when they introduced mass immigration for the only reason to rub the Right's nose in diversity - and didnt that work out well.. |
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Post by thescotsman on May 5, 2023 11:27:20 GMT
so on 1) above....look with all due respect are you conflating some self constructed notion of historical culture with modern zeitgeist? As I said I'm not a fan of all these fuckwits landing here with palms out expecting to be fed clothed and housed at the tax payers expense...fuck that....fuck them. But neither am I clinging to some long past notion of Britishness; being all maudlin and longing for days gone by viewed through rose tinted glasses:
The lies, and truths, and pain? ... oh! yet
Stands the Church clock at ten to three?
And is there honey still for tea?
And is there honey still for tea and will there still be leather on willow on the village green and will the larks still twist and turn over the white cliffs of Dover....time moves on and so does our store and source of "British" Culture. Mate, the biggest challenges I have seen to this "British culture" thing is the internet...American TV...Indian Take Aways...Notting Hill Carnivals....Prom....refrigeration...Malls...Datsun...Elvis Presley.... to name but a scintilla of influences, all an order of magnitude more impactful on "British culture" than a few darkies living in squallor. So once again from dear old Rupert...
I only know that you may lie
Day long and watch the Cambridge sky,
And, flower-lulled in sleepy grass,
Hear the cool lapse of hours pass,
Until the centuries blend and blur
In Grantchester, in Grantchester. ...
Fear ye not mate
anyway....2)...NO
So at the end of all that we just have you ranting on about 'darkies' and unable to give a single example of where mass immigration has made somewhere better. Perhaps you agreed with Labour when they introduced mass immigration for the only reason to rub the Right's nose in diversity - and didnt that work out well.....aye that would be it.....me ranting.....me being all passive aggressive.....sure whatever makes you happy..... bless your cotton socks there's no need to get all necky and defensive...this is just the internet.... 
Okay, so until you start fleshing out the concepts you're trying to put over it's difficult to discuss anything. From that I read "labour introduced mass immigration to annoy [conservatives] "the Right"....sure.....okay...?? And??
However, I was more interested in our partially constructed immigration and its effect on "British Culture" argument....I even gave you some Rupert Brooke....  ....a cultural interlude as it were...
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Post by thescotsman on May 5, 2023 11:46:48 GMT
so on 1) above....look with all due respect are you conflating some self constructed notion of historical culture with modern zeitgeist? As I said I'm not a fan of all these fuckwits landing here with palms out expecting to be fed clothed and housed at the tax payers expense...fuck that....fuck them. But neither am I clinging to some long past notion of Britishness; being all maudlin and longing for days gone by viewed through rose tinted glasses:
The lies, and truths, and pain? ... oh! yet
Stands the Church clock at ten to three?
And is there honey still for tea?
And is there honey still for tea and will there still be leather on willow on the village green and will the larks still twist and turn over the white cliffs of Dover....time moves on and so does our store and source of "British" Culture. Mate, the biggest challenges I have seen to this "British culture" thing is the internet...American TV...Indian Take Aways...Notting Hill Carnivals....Prom....refrigeration...Malls...Datsun...Elvis Presley.... to name but a scintilla of influences, all an order of magnitude more impactful on "British culture" than a few darkies living in squallor. So once again from dear old Rupert...
I only know that you may lie
Day long and watch the Cambridge sky,
And, flower-lulled in sleepy grass,
Hear the cool lapse of hours pass,
Until the centuries blend and blur
In Grantchester, in Grantchester. ...
Fear ye not mate
anyway....2)...NO
....that's not what we're discussing.....you introduced the concept of immigrants destroying British culture....my position is still that you haven't fleshed out how or what this cultural shift is....I mean I've tried to make a valiant defence but if you haven't formulated your argument yet then fine....go off and think about it and we can pick it up later....but I'm not really interested in simply pandering to your "how nasty immigrants are" rhetoric....its boring... |
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Post by sandypine on May 5, 2023 13:37:54 GMT
You have to get to grips with this, culture gives you memories you never had when something invokes that feeling. This is true for all cultures and in Scotland it is as true, if not more so, than anywhere else. Romantic ideals are important parts of a culture. Belittling or denigrating it even as it may fade away is not really a good look. I am Scottish but very much an Anglophile and I do find that the Lark Ascending is English through and through and those dreaming spires are as much a part of England that is being subsumed to the joy of many of my countrymen and even worse to the joy of some English people. Change is inevitable the problem lies in how much that change is planned and enforced and what is being imposed upon the English is effectively a damned disgrace, be warned Scotland will not be far behind in the 'first they came for...' stakes. Liked your message!
On the contrary. I'm not in the market to belittle or downplay or blackwash or change or bend spindle or mutilate anything out of our past present or future BUT...and this is the issue....what I do think is that we are where we are....if all these people that don't want immigrants arriving here and settling in Britain want them out...fine...then do something...advocate for change....get out and protest....make a difference...but don't hide that message behind some spurious comment about it killing (or whatever his phrase was) "British Culture" what he doesn't seem to want to comprehend what constitutes a culture. Or when or where or how it is garnered and how it intertwines into the psyche of the nation as a whole. Or how the sum of its parts allows it to be encompassed as a cultural aspect of the nation. Outsiders see part of the British culture as being one of fair play and tolerance....is that wrong....are they wrong....
Point being a culture is an evolving "thing" it moves with the time it assumes many guises and forms to match an individuals perception of what makes them what they are, so simply conflating "immigrants" and the "death of British culture" to me at least....is just a hamfisted use of language and pretty crass in the extreme...
Anyway...I liked your post!
I accept, and said, it is an evolving thing. What counts is whether it is a natural evolution or an imposed evolution. Native Americans and Aboriginal Australians had their cultures effectively overwhelmed. Largely this was a deliberate plan. We accept that being a deliberate act it was intrinsically wrong. It is no less wrong when it is imposed on English people against their will and it is most certainly against their will as over the last 80 years they have voted as regards immigration for almost the exact opposite of what has been enacted. They repeatedly do something and are repeatedly ignored or when some try to make it an issue they are subject to cancelling, or to intimidation or to legal action. The narrative is strictly controlled and in the end the only result will either be subjugation or violent fightback. It would be a tragedy either way but the control of our democratic process to block the actual will of the people is very strong. I advocate democracy but I can see it is being usurped. |
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Post by sandypine on May 5, 2023 14:12:39 GMT
and unable to give a single example of where mass immigration has made somewhere better. ....that's not what we're discussing.....you introduced the concept of immigrants destroying British culture....my position is still that you haven't fleshed out how or what this cultural shift is....I mean I've tried to make a valiant defence but if you haven't formulated your argument yet then fine....go off and think about it and we can pick it up later....but I'm not really interested in simply pandering to your "how nasty immigrants are" rhetoric....its boring... Suppression of free speech as regards religion through law and through violent intimidation, suppression of free demonstration through law and through violent intimidation, removal and damage to memorials and statues many held in esteem, race laws that discriminate against the Cultural British, the continuing rhetoric to downplay British celebrations customs and flags in case it offends people, the revision of history, the teaching in schools of how bad Britain was, the teaching of critical race theory to varying degrees, the depiction of Britain in advertising as a land composed mostly of black, brown and mixed race people with mixed race marriages being presented as the norm, the high regard given to black and brown heroes in history with concentration on the positive aspects, the low regard given to white heroes in history with concentration on the negative aspects, the determination to find how Britain has always depended on black and brown people to be present from trumpeters to war heroes. There is much more. In general the skewing of history and culture to give preference to other cultures and their relative proclivities. |
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Post by Pacifico on May 5, 2023 14:50:07 GMT
and unable to give a single example of where mass immigration has made somewhere better. ....that's not what we're discussing..... you introduced the concept of immigrants destroying British culture....my position is still that you haven't fleshed out how or what this cultural shift is....I mean I've tried to make a valiant defence but if you haven't formulated your argument yet then fine....go off and think about it and we can pick it up later....but I'm not really interested in simply pandering to your "how nasty immigrants are" rhetoric....its boring... Before the advent of mass immigration how many teachers had to go into hiding for expressing that great British virtue of free speech?. |
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Post by thescotsman on May 5, 2023 15:47:13 GMT
Liked your message!
On the contrary. I'm not in the market to belittle or downplay or blackwash or change or bend spindle or mutilate anything out of our past present or future BUT...and this is the issue....what I do think is that we are where we are....if all these people that don't want immigrants arriving here and settling in Britain want them out...fine...then do something...advocate for change....get out and protest....make a difference...but don't hide that message behind some spurious comment about it killing (or whatever his phrase was) "British Culture" what he doesn't seem to want to comprehend what constitutes a culture. Or when or where or how it is garnered and how it intertwines into the psyche of the nation as a whole. Or how the sum of its parts allows it to be encompassed as a cultural aspect of the nation. Outsiders see part of the British culture as being one of fair play and tolerance....is that wrong....are they wrong....
Point being a culture is an evolving "thing" it moves with the time it assumes many guises and forms to match an individuals perception of what makes them what they are, so simply conflating "immigrants" and the "death of British culture" to me at least....is just a hamfisted use of language and pretty crass in the extreme...
Anyway...I liked your post!
I accept, and said, it is an evolving thing. What counts is whether it is a natural evolution or an imposed evolution. Native Americans and Aboriginal Australians had their cultures effectively overwhelmed. Largely this was a deliberate plan. We accept that being a deliberate act it was intrinsically wrong. It is no less wrong when it is imposed on English people against their will and it is most certainly against their will as over the last 80 years they have voted as regards immigration for almost the exact opposite of what has been enacted. They repeatedly do something and are repeatedly ignored or when some try to make it an issue they are subject to cancelling, or to intimidation or to legal action. The narrative is strictly controlled and in the end the only result will either be subjugation or violent fightback. It would be a tragedy either way but the control of our democratic process to block the actual will of the people is very strong. I advocate democracy but I can see it is being usurped. The premise being (I presume) that politicians lie to the electorate? And yet the electorate keep voting for the same teams time after time after time so what does that say about their thoughts on immigration? Anything? Apathy? Who knows!
There have been various iterations of political movements wanting to actively stop immigration and/or remove immigrants. The latest movements having been either co-opted by/or been based upon disastrous policies or philosophical outlooks or odious characters and ultimately they've withered and died. What does that imply about the overall feeling within British society regarding the question of immigration and what to do with immigrants? Anything? Apathy? Who knows.
There has been a (seemingly) middle class rebellion against big oil recently, fueled by the green movement (pun intended) and the just stop oil protesters...without delving into the underlying insidiousness of the political motives of certain activists or the rights or wrongs of their methods, it is gaining momentum. People are making their views known - they are protesting. Point being they are doing something that they feel strongly about.
My position is based partly on the fact that I don't give a shit because voters got what they voted for - which is not the most intellectually sound construct I grant you but in the face of any other more appealing alternative it's the best I can manage. That said I am still to be convinced that despite a significant influx of people over the past millennia...centuries....decades this has caused the destruction of "British culture" when there are so many influences on it; be that immigrants and European and world cultures who all have an influence upon us because we are a free and open society. So who defines and constrains and approves what constitutes the intrinsic tenets of British culture?
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Post by thescotsman on May 5, 2023 15:50:33 GMT
....that's not what we're discussing..... you introduced the concept of immigrants destroying British culture....my position is still that you haven't fleshed out how or what this cultural shift is....I mean I've tried to make a valiant defence but if you haven't formulated your argument yet then fine....go off and think about it and we can pick it up later....but I'm not really interested in simply pandering to your "how nasty immigrants are" rhetoric....its boring... Before the advent of mass immigration how many teachers had to go into hiding for expressing that great British virtue of free speech?. don't know. |
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....a cultural interlude as it were...