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Post by om15 on Mar 14, 2023 12:58:00 GMT
Now? Support for Separation has dropped from 45% in 2014 to 38% yesterday.
Is Yousaf really the best you can do? I mean really the best?
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Post by Ripley on Mar 14, 2023 14:56:17 GMT
Preferring to stay in the union when there is an alternative does suggest that you're a unionist even as you describe yourself as not a particularly committed one. What would persuade you to commit? Thank you for pointing out the obvious , and what myself and morayloon on this and the old forum have told our unionist friend happyjack .
Happy likes to set himself up as some middle ground concerned citizen , to try and make himself unassailable , while concentrating his fire totally and utterly at scottish independence. If you support the union( prefer to stay in the union) you are a de facto unionist as you point out.
We have one of the worst westmisnter governments in my lifetime , outstripping even thatchers regime yet you never hear any criticism from happy about the state of his union and its government.
In 2014 , you could understand some scots ( to a degree , and im being overly fair here) wanting the status quo as the safe option. Now?
The status quo is seen by many scots as the extreme option , with a centre left pro european scotland being increasingly dragged through the dirt by a right wing fascist british nationalist government intent on turning us all into europes third world state.
Happy isnt interested in being perusaded about anything to do with scottish indy despite the weasel words. What happy is deeply concerned about is his ever increasing minority view and his accursed union being cast aside by the scottish public.
It's difficult to reconcile the poster's stated position with his arguments. Fence sitting is a choice, too, but I would think that a person only lands in the middle ground because of some dissatisfaction with both alternatives, and I'm not hearing that. I can't tell if he is truly happy with the union or just accepting of it because he thinks it's the lesser of two evils. Perhaps he will enlighten me. Perhaps not. |
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Post by thomas on Mar 14, 2023 16:08:54 GMT
Now? Support for Separation has dropped from 45% in 2014 to 38% yesterday. Is Yousaf really the best you can do? I mean really the best? No it hasnt. The poll mentioned is with the dont knows included. Most polls show dont knows removed , so the 38 % is actually 46 % with dont knows excluded. The poll before that had 52 % for indy.
Talk about desperation to get a low headline figure . 
Many polling companies are still weighting results to 2014 laughably.
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Post by thomas on Mar 14, 2023 16:11:18 GMT
Thank you for pointing out the obvious , and what myself and morayloon on this and the old forum have told our unionist friend happyjack .
Happy likes to set himself up as some middle ground concerned citizen , to try and make himself unassailable , while concentrating his fire totally and utterly at scottish independence. If you support the union( prefer to stay in the union) you are a de facto unionist as you point out.
We have one of the worst westmisnter governments in my lifetime , outstripping even thatchers regime yet you never hear any criticism from happy about the state of his union and its government.
In 2014 , you could understand some scots ( to a degree , and im being overly fair here) wanting the status quo as the safe option. Now?
The status quo is seen by many scots as the extreme option , with a centre left pro european scotland being increasingly dragged through the dirt by a right wing fascist british nationalist government intent on turning us all into europes third world state.
Happy isnt interested in being perusaded about anything to do with scottish indy despite the weasel words. What happy is deeply concerned about is his ever increasing minority view and his accursed union being cast aside by the scottish public.
It's difficult to reconcile the poster's stated position with his arguments. Fence sitting is a choice, too, but I would think that a person only lands in the middle ground because of some dissatisfaction with both alternatives, and I'm not hearing that. I can't tell if he is truly happy with the union or just accepting of it because he thinks it's the lesser of two evils. Perhaps he will enlighten me. Perhaps not. i wouldnt hold your breath ripley.
Imagine being a hardcore unionist , but not having the courage of your convictions to stand under your political flag during debate ?
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Post by sheepy on Mar 14, 2023 20:06:54 GMT
The speed that the Scots have rolled over for New Labour must be some kind of record.
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Post by happyjack on Mar 15, 2023 22:39:46 GMT
I am not at all committed to the union and I most certainly did not describe myself as “a not particularly committed one” as you claim above. I know that you don’t appreciate people putting words in your mouth and, in the past on the old forum, were quick to chastise those who did, so please try not to do this to me. Give me something better than what we have and I will have no hesitation getting behind that option. I have made that clear both on this forum and on the old site on many occasions - and I have explained just as many times what it would take to convince me that another option would be better. Are you asking what would persuade me to commit to unionism? I am open to ideas and to changing my opinions as circumstances around me change, so I don’t think that I hold (or am ever likely to hold) ideological views on anything beyond the core values such as democracy, individual equality, and personal freedom which, hopefully, we all share. I certainly don’t see me ever holding ideological views on the union - neither unionism nor Scots nationalism. I accept that theoretically one doesn't have to be a unionist to be against independence, but in practical terms, what other options do you have but to participate in the union? There is nothing theoretical about it. I have explained to you that, in addition to myself, about 25% of Scotland’s population is in that category, so there are in excess of 1 million real life examples of us going about our everyday business in Scotland right now - plus many others amongst the 1,000,000 or so non-resident Scots living within rUK or overseas, of course. You either accept that or you don’t. It is a simple enough concept to grasp, after all.
There are no other practical options to participating in the UK other than opting for independence (although there are a number of theoretical options, of course). However, preferring not to support an act of national self-harm but to remain in the UK instead until such time as the scales tip in favour of independence (if they ever do) does not make those 25% or so of us unionists.
But enough of me. Where do you stand on the independence issue and why?
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Post by happyjack on Mar 15, 2023 22:57:02 GMT
It's difficult to reconcile the poster's stated position with his arguments. Fence sitting is a choice ... Ripley, Are you saying that my stated position is that I am sitting on the fence? If so, can you point to where I have said that please. |
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Post by Ripley on Mar 15, 2023 23:31:35 GMT
It's difficult to reconcile the poster's stated position with his arguments. Fence sitting is a choice ... Ripley, Are you saying that my stated position is that I am sitting on the fence? If so, can you point to where I have said that please."On the fence" is my phraseology, derived from your having described yourself as an Indy sceptic who has no strong ideological leanings either way. That puts you in the middle ground. Being in the middle ground suggests to me that you are not entirely satisfied with either side. However, I'm not aware of any dissatisfaction you have with the union. Are you happy with the status quo, or just tolerating it? |
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Post by thomas on Mar 16, 2023 7:52:10 GMT
It's difficult to reconcile the poster's stated position with his arguments. Fence sitting is a choice ... Ripley, Are you saying that my stated position is that I am sitting on the fence? If so, can you point to where I have said that please."On the fence" is my phraseology, derived from your having described yourself as an Indy sceptic who has no strong ideological leanings either way. That puts you in the middle ground. Being in the middle ground suggests to me that you are not entirely satisfied with either side. However, I'm not aware of any dissatisfaction you have with the union. Are you happy with the status quo, or just tolerating it? Riply , may i suggest you dont waste your time with happy going over the point about his alleged impartiality?
We have this curious phenomenon in scotland of certain unionists pretending to be impartial over the question of independence as happy jack exemplifies. Its normally done for example of them asking to be persuaded , or pretending to be former yes voters who have turned no.
I Dont know if its attention seeking , needing to feel wanted , or some curious strategy of debate , but whatever it is , it normally has most scottish people in fits of laughter . A good example was after the snp leaders debate the other night , we had the phone in on the local radio show where this "impartial unionist " phoned in telling us how he formerly voted yes in 2014 , now was no and went into a rant about the snp leadership hopefulls. By the end of the rant , he had forgotten he told us he voted yes previously.
Its a puerile tactic no one outside of the delusional unionist bubble takes serious.
You can normally tell the few genuinely unsure by the fact they normally have little interest in politics , and dont really follow the scot indy debate as you , i and happyjack do. For a man who is a member of a political forum , who bangs on about the union on a daily basis , and attacks relentlessly the cause of independence across numerous sites that i have been on to pretend he is somehow impartial and waiting to be persuaded on the merits of indy is of course laughable.
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Post by Ripley on Mar 16, 2023 17:22:04 GMT
"On the fence" is my phraseology, derived from your having described yourself as an Indy sceptic who has no strong ideological leanings either way. That puts you in the middle ground. Being in the middle ground suggests to me that you are not entirely satisfied with either side. However, I'm not aware of any dissatisfaction you have with the union. Are you happy with the status quo, or just tolerating it? Riply , may i suggest you dont waste your time with happy going over the point about his alleged impartiality?
We have this curious phenomenon in scotland of certain unionists pretending to be impartial over the question of independence as happy jack exemplifies. Its normally done for example of them asking to be persuaded , or pretending to be former yes voters who have turned no.
I Dont know if its attention seeking , needing to feel wanted , or some curious strategy of debate , but whatever it is , it normally has most scottish people in fits of laughter . A good example was after the snp leaders debate the other night , we had the phone in on the local radio show where this "impartial unionist " phoned in telling us how he formerly voted yes in 2014 , now was no and went into a rant about the snp leadership hopefulls. By the end of the rant , he had forgotten he told us he voted yes previously.
Its a puerile tactic no one outside of the delusional unionist bubble takes serious.
You can normally tell the few genuinely unsure by the fact they normally have little interest in politics , and dont really follow the scot indy debate as you , i and happyjack do. For a man who is a member of a political forum , who bangs on about the union on a daily basis , and attacks relentlessly the cause of independence across numerous sites that i have been on to pretend he is somehow impartial and waiting to be persuaded on the merits of indy is of course laughable.
If my time here was productive, I might worry about wasting it, but it's not. I'm only here for the purpose of wasting time.  It's early days, but so far I am unconvinced by the poster's characterisation of himself as impartial. Do you think he could be sincerely deluding himself? I may never find out, because he doesn't always answer my responses or questions. He seems to enjoy playing chase with you, though. |
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Post by happyjack on Mar 16, 2023 18:44:44 GMT
Just as I asked for evidence that I have ever claimed to be sitting on the fence, I am now asking both of you to show me where I have ever claimed to be impartial, as you both accuse me of doing.
And as for you, Ripley, I am unconvinced by your claim to have been introduced to this site by a friend. You were on the old site under another name, just as I was and have declared myself to have been - and just as Thomas was, too. It was blatantly obvious from very early on who you are (or were) and everything that you post just reinforces that.
As for not always answering your questions, I won’t always do that, partly due to time constraints and partly because you will find the answers to some of them in things that I have said in other posts submitted by me more or less concurrently with when you have asked your questions of me.
That sad, I think that I have only asked you one genuine question on here about your opinions and beliefs and you have failed to answer that. That feels a tad discourteous to me given how you feel free to prod and probe me and given your obvious sense of entitlement to an answer - and perhaps also another example of your old double standards.
As for Thomas’s post above, what he says is not surprising. It obviously stretches him to get his head around all but the simplest of concepts. This, combined with his Indy fanatic’s block, which renders him near to incapable of processing and understanding anything that conflicts with the Indy agenda, result in the kind of outpouring that we see above, most of which ( in respect of me, at least) is factually untrue.
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Post by Ripley on Mar 16, 2023 19:36:06 GMT
Just as I asked for evidence that I have ever claimed to be sitting on the fence, I am now going to ask both of you to show me where I have ever claimed to be impartial. And as for you, Ripley, I am unconvinced by your claim to have been introduced to this site by a friend. You were on the old site under another name, just as I was and have declared myself to have been - and just as Thomas was, too. It was blatantly obvious from very early on who you are (or were) and everything that you post just reinforces that. As for not always answering your questions, I won’t always do that, partly due to time constraints and partly because you will find the answers to some of them in things that I have said in other posts that I have submitted more or less concurrently with when you have asked your questions of me. That sad, I think that I have only asked you one genuine question on here about your opinions and beliefs and you have failed to answer that. That feels a tad discourteous to me given how you feel free to prod and probe me and given your obvious sense of entitlement to an answer - and perhaps also another example of your old double standards. I'm not in the mood for trawling through all your posts to find specific words. You have given the impression of claiming to be impartial. If you're not, why don't you clear up my misconception? If you think that you know me, you are barking up the wrong tree, which may explain why you resist my attempts to establish your position so that we can converse. But no matter. There are other conversations to be had. |
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Post by happyjack on Mar 16, 2023 21:37:22 GMT
There are no specific words for you to find even if you could be bothered to look because I have never claimed to be anything other than opposed to independence, and the content of most of my posts make it clear that I am a No voter too. I take that position solely based upon self-interest (and in what I believe is in the interest of my fellow Scots) and my whole position is based purely upon financial / economic considerations, free from any ideological leanings (eg. unionism) of which I hold none. So I am not impartial on independence, but I am impartial on the unionism /nationalism issue, simply because I don’t care about either.
Why do you struggle to grasp that? You surely appreciate that people make decisions on all sorts of issues based upon how things are likely to impact upon them financially, so why shouldn’t that be the case when they make their decision on Scottish independence? Do you feel that you have to attribute certain values on everyone who votes No, whether they have these values or not? The only value I have here is to “follow the money” and it is because that is my only value that I am a persuadable voter. All it would take for me to jump sides is for the economic case for leaving the UK to be stronger than the economic case for staying in the UK.
I think that you have a cheek, frankly, to accuse me of resisting your attempts to establish my position when I have spent a considerable amount of time trying to explain that to you through various answers. Plus, we can’t converse unless and until you are willing to allow me to establish your position too - which you have avoided doing despite me asking you to tell me a bit about it. Exactly the same behaviour as you displayed on the old site and just further confirmation that you are that self-same person.
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Post by thomas on Mar 17, 2023 9:04:05 GMT
Just as I asked for evidence that I have ever claimed to be sitting on the fence, I am now asking both of you to show me where I have ever claimed to be impartial, as you both accuse me of doing. you are trying and failing to present yourself as a concerned scottish citizen yet to be convinced of the merits of independence. Im calling you out and saying this is horseshit , you will never be convinced of independnece as you are a unionist through and through , and im saying at least have the courage of your convictions to match your weasel words on this forum with your hardcore unionism instead of pretending otherwise. |
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Post by happyjack on Mar 17, 2023 12:21:49 GMT
So, from that, I take it that you cannot produce anything from me where I claim to be impartial on Scottish independence. Despite that, and despite the various occasions where I have said that I oppose Independence or that I am not impartial on the matter of independence ( the post immediately above yours being the latest example FFS) or that I am on the NO side of the debate, you cannot bring yourself to concede that you were wrong in saying that I claim to be impartial on the matter.
So, once again , please show me where I ever said that I am impartial on the question of Scottish Independence ... and also please explain how you can interpret me saying that I oppose independence and that I am not impartial on the matter of independence translates in your mind as me claiming to be impartial on the independence.
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