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Post by happyjack on Mar 13, 2023 0:37:42 GMT
Why can I not say that?
Just as there are many who oppose the Conservative and Unionist Party and oppose remaining in the union who are not nationalists, there are many who oppose the SNP and oppose Scottish Independence who are not unionists.
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Post by Ripley on Mar 13, 2023 0:50:15 GMT
Why can I not say that? Just as there are many who oppose the Conservative and Unionist Party and oppose remaining in the union who are not nationalists, there are many who oppose the SNP and oppose Scottish Independence who are not unionists. Either you are for or against the union. If you're against Scottish independence but not for the union, are you in the union against your will? |
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Post by happyjack on Mar 13, 2023 2:13:33 GMT
Ok, I think that I see where you are coming from. You seem to believe that anyone who prefers to stay in the union rather than opt for independence is a unionist and, presumably, that anyone who prefers the opposite is a nationalist. I think that that classification is too simplistic and fails to recognise distinctively different groups with quite different motivations within both sides of the divide - so I don’t agree with it and don’t use it.
Rather, I consider unionists and nationalists to be those who are ideologically committed to their respective causes no matter the cost and for reasons that the rest of us don’t care all that much about. They account for maybe 50% of us.
The other 50% or so of us come at things from a different, more pragmatic than ideological, direction. While we pretty much all find ourselves on one side of the Indy line or the other by now, we don’t have strong (if any) ideological leanings one way or the other on the issue, don’t have anywhere near the same level of commitment (or, in many cases, intolerance) as the ideologues, generally have some doubts about our position, and are still open to persuasion to varying degrees. Those whom, during the SNP leadership campaign, we hear being described as the persuadables, come from this grouping, and they are where the Indy battle will be won or lost. In very simplistic broad brush terms, those who have more to lose tend to be more risk adverse so tend to opt for the status quo (which just happens to be the union) while those who feel that they have little to lose and perhaps something to gain by taking a risk more often opt for change (which just happens to be independence). In my view, these people are Indy sceptics or Indy supporters (although, thinking about it, maybe Indy optimists is a more appropriate term than Indy supporters here) not unionists or nationalists, and I describe them as such. I am in this section of the electorate, obviously on the Indy sceptic side in my case.
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Post by Vinny on Mar 13, 2023 8:30:14 GMT
Scottish nationalism is a toxic racist sewer of bitterness, hatred and jealousy towards the English.
Kill it off. Abolish Scotland and England and Wales. Merge them into one, and have a unified legal system.
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Post by borchester on Mar 13, 2023 12:02:03 GMT
Should Scotland be an independent country? (Scot Goes Pop / Find Out Now, 1st - 9th March 2023)
Yes 52%
No 48%
EXCLUSIVE SCOT GOES POP / FIND OUT NOW POLL: Sensational result finds majority of voters in Scotland would now vote Yes to independence - plus a major boost for Ash Regan's campaign pitch as the vast majority of SNP voters agree that a 50% + 1 victory in a scheduled election would represent a democratic mandate for independence
Well good luck to the Scots and their independence movement.
So can we assume that Indyref2 is definitely on for this October ?
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Post by Ripley on Mar 13, 2023 13:36:02 GMT
Ok, I think that I see where you are coming from. You seem to believe that anyone who prefers to stay in the union rather than opt for independence is a unionist and, presumably, that anyone who prefers the opposite is a nationalist. I think that that classification is too simplistic and fails to recognise distinctively different groups with quite different motivations within both sides of the divide - so I don’t agree with it and don’t use it. Rather, I consider unionists and nationalists to be those who are ideologically committed to their respective causes no matter the cost and for reasons that the rest of us don’t care all that much about. They account for maybe 50% of us. The other 50% or so of us come at things from a different, more pragmatic than ideological, direction. While we pretty much all find ourselves on one side of the Indy line or the other by now, we don’t have strong (if any) ideological leanings one way or the other on the issue, don’t have anywhere near the same level of commitment (or, in many cases, intolerance) as the ideologues, generally have some doubts about our position, and are still open to persuasion to varying degrees. Those whom, during the SNP leadership campaign, we hear being described as the persuadables, come from this grouping, and they are where the Indy battle will be won or lost. In very simplistic broad brush terms, those who have more to lose tend to be more risk adverse so tend to opt for the status quo (which just happens to be the union) while those who feel that they have little to lose and perhaps something to gain by taking a risk more often opt for change (which just happens to be independence). In my view, these people are Indy sceptics or Indy supporters (although, thinking about it, maybe Indy optimists is a more appropriate term than Indy supporters here) not unionists or nationalists, and I describe them as such. I am in this section of the electorate, obviously on the Indy sceptic side in my case. Preferring to stay in the union when there is an alternative does suggest that you're a unionist even as you describe yourself as not a particularly committed one. What would persuade you to commit? |
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Post by happyjack on Mar 13, 2023 15:02:48 GMT
I am not at all committed to the union and I most certainly did not describe myself as “a not particularly committed one” as you claim above. I know that you don’t appreciate people putting words in your mouth and, in the past on the old forum, were quick to chastise those who did, so please try not to do this to me. Give me something better than what we have through being in the union and I will have no hesitation getting behind that option. I have made that clear both on this forum and on the old site on many occasions - and I have explained just as many times what it would take to convince me that another option would be better.
Are you asking what would persuade me to commit to unionism? I am open to ideas and to changing my opinions as circumstances around me change, so I don’t think that I hold (or am ever likely to hold) ideological views on anything beyond the core values such as democracy, individual equality, and personal freedom which, hopefully, we all share. I certainly don’t see me ever holding ideological views on the union - neither unionism nor Scots nationalism.
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Post by Handyman on Mar 13, 2023 16:41:45 GMT
According the The Scotsman posted on line about one hour ago
New polling suggests support for independence has dropped to just 39 percent
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Post by om15 on Mar 13, 2023 17:08:52 GMT
It certainly appears to be falling apart, unsurprisingly,
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Post by Ripley on Mar 13, 2023 17:35:30 GMT
I am not at all committed to the union and I most certainly did not describe myself as “a not particularly committed one” as you claim above. I know that you don’t appreciate people putting words in your mouth and, in the past on the old forum, were quick to chastise those who did, so please try not to do this to me. Give me something better than what we have and I will have no hesitation getting behind that option. I have made that clear both on this forum and on the old site on many occasions - and I have explained just as many times what it would take to convince me that another option would be better. Are you asking what would persuade me to commit to unionism? I am open to ideas and to changing my opinions as circumstances around me change, so I don’t think that I hold (or am ever likely to hold) ideological views on anything beyond the core values such as democracy, individual equality, and personal freedom which, hopefully, we all share. I certainly don’t see me ever holding ideological views on the union - neither unionism nor Scots nationalism. I don't know why you think you know me. I am relatively new here and I don't know you. I accept that theoretically one doesn't have to be a unionist to be against independence, but in practical terms, what other options do you have but to participate in the union? What kind of 'something better' would cause you to want to change your status quo either way? Or are you comfortable with the way things are? |
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Post by borchester on Mar 13, 2023 17:50:54 GMT
According the The Scotsman posted on line about one hour ago New polling suggests support for independence has dropped to just 39 percent I tend to trust The Scotsman.
In July 2003 it published the news that my daughter had been awarded a first class MA from Edinburgh University and you can't fault a newspaper that has the wisdom to do that.
Still, I am not overly sure as to the validity of any polls and feel that that the best idea is to run Indy2 in October
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Post by Handyman on Mar 13, 2023 18:00:25 GMT
According the The Scotsman posted on line about one hour ago New polling suggests support for independence has dropped to just 39 percent I tend to trust The Scotsman.
In July 2003 it published the news that my daughter had been awarded a first class MA from Edinburgh University and you can't fault a newspaper that has the wisdom to do that.
Still, I am not overly sure as to the validity of any polls and feel that that the best idea is to run Indy2 in October
I agree Polls are not that accurate |
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Post by sheepy on Mar 13, 2023 22:54:41 GMT
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Post by thomas on Mar 14, 2023 8:35:11 GMT
Ok, I think that I see where you are coming from. You seem to believe that anyone who prefers to stay in the union rather than opt for independence is a unionist and, presumably, that anyone who prefers the opposite is a nationalist. I think that that classification is too simplistic and fails to recognise distinctively different groups with quite different motivations within both sides of the divide - so I don’t agree with it and don’t use it. Rather, I consider unionists and nationalists to be those who are ideologically committed to their respective causes no matter the cost and for reasons that the rest of us don’t care all that much about. They account for maybe 50% of us. The other 50% or so of us come at things from a different, more pragmatic than ideological, direction. While we pretty much all find ourselves on one side of the Indy line or the other by now, we don’t have strong (if any) ideological leanings one way or the other on the issue, don’t have anywhere near the same level of commitment (or, in many cases, intolerance) as the ideologues, generally have some doubts about our position, and are still open to persuasion to varying degrees. Those whom, during the SNP leadership campaign, we hear being described as the persuadables, come from this grouping, and they are where the Indy battle will be won or lost. In very simplistic broad brush terms, those who have more to lose tend to be more risk adverse so tend to opt for the status quo (which just happens to be the union) while those who feel that they have little to lose and perhaps something to gain by taking a risk more often opt for change (which just happens to be independence). In my view, these people are Indy sceptics or Indy supporters (although, thinking about it, maybe Indy optimists is a more appropriate term than Indy supporters here) not unionists or nationalists, and I describe them as such. I am in this section of the electorate, obviously on the Indy sceptic side in my case. Preferring to stay in the union when there is an alternative does suggest that you're a unionist even as you describe yourself as not a particularly committed one. What would persuade you to commit? Thank you for pointing out the obvious , and what myself and morayloon on this and the old forum have told our unionist friend happyjack .
Happy likes to set himself up as some middle ground concerned citizen , to try and make himself unassailable , while concentrating his fire totally and utterly at scottish independence. If you support the union( prefer to stay in the union) you are a de facto unionist as you point out.
We have one of the worst westmisnter governments in my lifetime , outstripping even thatchers regime yet you never hear any criticism from happy about the state of his union and its government.
In 2014 , you could understand some scots ( to a degree , and im being overly fair here) wanting the status quo as the safe option. Now?
The status quo is seen by many scots as the extreme option , with a centre left pro european scotland being increasingly dragged through the dirt by a right wing fascist british nationalist government intent on turning us all into europes third world state.
Happy isnt interested in being perusaded about anything to do with scottish indy despite the weasel words. What happy is deeply concerned about is his ever increasing minority view and his accursed union being cast aside by the scottish public.
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Post by Vinny on Mar 14, 2023 12:33:44 GMT
 SNP pollsters asked these two men for their verdict on Scottish independence and slipped them both a bottle of Buckfast. Both of them agreed the Union is finished. One of them gave his name as Thomas, the other Rab. |
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