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Post by oracle75 on Mar 14, 2023 13:12:12 GMT
Today the "junior" doctors are on strike.
To qualify you have to study for 7 years and amass a huge loan.
There arent enough of them...hospitals regularly say there arent enough
If you consider their pay as per hour worked, they make less than a barista, which requires an hour of tuition and offers regular hours.
And there are far more applications than places. No trouble finding thhose who need two or three jobs in order to pay their bills.
So Pacifico. How do you explain the doctors'wages for a relative minority who have no problem finding work (partly because so many want to leave) as LOWER than an unqualified employee where working conditions are better and the pool of potential workers is huge?
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Post by patman post on Mar 14, 2023 14:37:52 GMT
Wages rising with inflation is one thing if they rise above inflation, but if they rise below inflation, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. There's 8 million people in France in poverty. mondediplo.com/2021/10/13food-boxThat's not good. That article is dated October 2021 — in the UK, 13.4 million people were living in poverty in 2020/21.
Around one in five of our population (20%) were in poverty in 2020/21 - that's 13.4 million people. Of these:
7.9 million were working-age adults
3.9 million were children
1.7 million were pensioners
And because the UK, unlike France, isn't self-sufficient in food, Brexit has increased the difficulty and cost of getting food and keeping costs down...
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Post by Steve on Mar 14, 2023 17:16:31 GMT
No 13.4 million were living in relative poverty. Not the same as absolute poverty The Joseph Rowntree does itself no favours with its disingenuity, they know full well that to get such large headline grabbing numbers they include anyone in a household on less than 60% median income as being in poverty www.jrf.org.uk/our-work/what-is-poverty |
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Post by Bentley on Mar 14, 2023 17:31:25 GMT
Junior doctors are not all on the same wage .
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Post by Pacifico on Mar 14, 2023 17:46:39 GMT
You are not artificially inflating anything - you are meeting the market rate for labour. And the market rate for labour depends on supply of that labour - the more you have the less you have to pay and VV. You keep repeating this iin the same way as someone learning 1 plus 1 equals 2 thonks they can do advanced calculus. Wages depend on location...ie London weighting or lower wages in rural areas. Higher wages pushes the cost of living up which is why not everyone wants to work in London. Wages also depend on productivity. If four people can do the work of five, you dismiss one and wages for the rest dont change. Wages depend on competition. If a competitive centre of production opens up down the road, wages have to be adjusted accordingly. So wages depend on competition except when they don't - your thesis seems to be all over the place today. Where are they going to get the money from to pay these wages if they dont not have enough profits or investment? - magic money tree perhaps? |
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Post by Pacifico on Mar 14, 2023 17:48:55 GMT
Today the "junior" doctors are on strike. To qualify you have to study for 7 years and amass a huge loan. There arent enough of them...hospitals regularly say there arent enough If you consider their pay as per hour worked, they make less than a barista, which requires an hour of tuition and offers regular hours. And there are far more applications than places. No trouble finding thhose who need two or three jobs in order to pay their bills. So Pacifico. How do you explain the doctors'wages for a relative minority who have no problem finding work (partly because so many want to leave) as LOWER than an unqualified employee where working conditions are better and the pool of potential workers is huge? It's only the NHS who has trouble finding staff - the private sector pay the market rate. If the NHS refuse to pay the market rate then they will have trouble filling vacancies. as I said - it's normal supply and demand. |
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Post by oracle75 on Mar 14, 2023 19:21:28 GMT
Whether by design or lack of ability you have completely missed my point.
There arent enough doctors. So they, by your "thinking" means they should command a very high wage.
Baristas are aleays available yet today are paid more per hour than doctors.
I told you your simplistic mantra barely touches the things that affect wages.
I already mentioned how profit and investment affects wages. I dont need you to mirror that back to me.
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Post by zanygame on Mar 14, 2023 20:26:32 GMT
Its not, my argument is that you cannot artificially inflate wages in most cases by reducing the available work force. You are not artificially inflating anything - you are meeting the market rate for labour. And the market rate for labour depends on supply of that labour - the more you have the less you have to pay and VV. If that's true why are the Chinese paid less than us? |
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Post by zanygame on Mar 14, 2023 20:28:30 GMT
Pay in trucking was driven down whilst we were in the EU. Employers would say locals didn't want to do it, Eastern Europeans would work for less. Truth is locals couldn't afford to do it for less. Big shortages of drivers built up. Then free movement ended. Then pay shot up both for short and long distance. Now some of the truckers who had quit because of shit pay have come back. Yes but its an exception. |
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Post by Pacifico on Mar 14, 2023 22:34:32 GMT
Whether by design or lack of ability you have completely missed my point. There arent enough doctors. So they, by your "thinking" means they should command a very high wage. Baristas are aleays available yet today are paid more per hour than doctors. I told you your simplistic mantra barely touches the things that affect wages. I already mentioned how profit and investment affects wages. I dont need you to mirror that back to me. I answered your point - the NHS disagrees with you . Now the NHS may be wrong but that is a decision they have made - and as I have already pointed out (that you obviously missed) the private sector have no problem filling vacancies as they pay the market rate. |
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Post by Pacifico on Mar 14, 2023 22:36:51 GMT
You are not artificially inflating anything - you are meeting the market rate for labour. And the market rate for labour depends on supply of that labour - the more you have the less you have to pay and VV. If that's true why are the Chinese paid less than us? There is 1.4 Billion of them. There is 70 million of us. Is your ambition for the UK to emulate China? |
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Post by zanygame on Mar 15, 2023 7:03:04 GMT
If that's true why are the Chinese paid less than us? There is 1.4 Billion of them. There is 70 million of us. Is your ambition for the UK to emulate China? No it is my ambition to demonstrate to you that you are wrong. That you cannot increase UK wages simply by reducing the work force in the UK. Short term they do rise, but then all the other factors come into play. |
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Post by Pacifico on Mar 15, 2023 7:49:09 GMT
There is 1.4 Billion of them. There is 70 million of us. Is your ambition for the UK to emulate China? No it is my ambition to demonstrate to you that you are wrong. That you cannot increase UK wages simply by reducing the work force in the UK. Short term they do rise, but then all the other factors come into play. Well the classic example is Poland - massive growth that means they are catching up with the UK whilst actually seeing a reduction in population. It's productivity that matters not the size of your population.   |
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Post by oracle75 on Mar 15, 2023 8:45:18 GMT
Whether by design or lack of ability you have completely missed my point. There arent enough doctors. So they, by your "thinking" means they should command a very high wage. Baristas are aleays available yet today are paid more per hour than doctors. I told you your simplistic mantra barely touches the things that affect wages. I already mentioned how profit and investment affects wages. I dont need you to mirror that back to me. I answered your point - the NHS disagrees with you . Now the NHS may be wrong but that is a decision they have made - and as I have already pointed out (that you obviously missed) the private sector have no problem filling vacancies as they pay the market rate. Now you are prevaricating. YOUR SIMPLISTIC EQUATION DOES NOT MENTION PUBLIC VS PRIVATE WAGES. Nor much else that decides wage rates. You are now beginning to see all the "yes buts" that I tried to explain to you. My point was that your trope was so general as to be more inaccurate than applicable. Real life is way more complicated. |
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Post by Pacifico on Mar 15, 2023 8:58:12 GMT
Not really - we had a problem with a shortage of truck drivers - we raised pay and improved conditions and that problem was solved.
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