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Post by zanygame on Mar 13, 2023 22:36:44 GMT
More like when Dyson moved to Malaysia. Because he decided that manufacturing within the EU was unsustainable - why do you think he came to that conclusion? Because wages in Malaysia were 60% less.
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Post by Pacifico on Mar 13, 2023 22:40:27 GMT
Because he decided that manufacturing within the EU was unsustainable - why do you think he came to that conclusion? Because wages in Malaysia were 60% less. They are less than any country in Europe - if your argument is that the UK should abandon manufacturing then I'm sorry, I disagree.
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Post by Steve on Mar 13, 2023 23:03:18 GMT
More like when Dyson moved to Malaysia. Because he decided that manufacturing within the EU was unsustainable - why do you think he came to that conclusion? Because manufacturing always migrates to lowest sum labour+energy+transport to market+tariffs cost
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Post by Vinny on Mar 13, 2023 23:18:06 GMT
There's international road haulage. I sometimes have to send things to customers by DHL. Their road freight service goes all over Europe (excluding Putinland).
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Post by Steve on Mar 14, 2023 0:10:04 GMT
There's international road haulage. I sometimes have to send things to customers by DHL. Their road freight service goes all over Europe (excluding Putinland). So?
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Post by Vinny on Mar 14, 2023 0:42:05 GMT
It's worked in the trucking industry. Because you can't take the trucking industry abroad. I was addressing this point.
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Post by oracle75 on Mar 14, 2023 7:05:46 GMT
Labour does not conform to supply and demand. There is an interesting claim - do you have any actual evidence to support that contention, either Economic theory or research papers? If you do there are a lot of Economists and Universities who would love to hear from you. I have just explained to you over several posts how it works in reality. Wages annd employmment are NOT simple matters of supply and demand.
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Post by zanygame on Mar 14, 2023 7:36:04 GMT
Because wages in Malaysia were 60% less. They are less than any country in Europe - if your argument is that the UK should abandon manufacturing then I'm sorry, I disagree. Its not, my argument is that you cannot artificially inflate wages in most cases by reducing the available work force. You can increase them by. 1, Making things that are in demand that others don't make. 2, Placing tariffs on products produced outside your country to make them more expensive.
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Post by zanygame on Mar 14, 2023 7:41:56 GMT
There's international road haulage. I sometimes have to send things to customers by DHL. Their road freight service goes all over Europe (excluding Putinland). Its an exception that proves the rule. No one wants to be a long distance lorry driver, its a necessary job (At the moment) and you need to be local to the hub. A coffee shop has to be local, but its wage is governed by what people will pay because its not a necessary job. A clothes maker is a necessary job, but doesn't have to be local.
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Post by Pacifico on Mar 14, 2023 7:49:43 GMT
They are less than any country in Europe - if your argument is that the UK should abandon manufacturing then I'm sorry, I disagree. Its not, my argument is that you cannot artificially inflate wages in most cases by reducing the available work force. You are not artificially inflating anything - you are meeting the market rate for labour. And the market rate for labour depends on supply of that labour - the more you have the less you have to pay and VV.
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Post by Vinny on Mar 14, 2023 8:29:10 GMT
Pay in trucking was driven down whilst we were in the EU. Employers would say locals didn't want to do it, Eastern Europeans would work for less.
Truth is locals couldn't afford to do it for less. Big shortages of drivers built up. Then free movement ended. Then pay shot up both for short and long distance.
Now some of the truckers who had quit because of shit pay have come back.
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Post by oracle75 on Mar 14, 2023 11:49:22 GMT
Its not, my argument is that you cannot artificially inflate wages in most cases by reducing the available work force. You are not artificially inflating anything - you are meeting the market rate for labour. And the market rate for labour depends on supply of that labour - the more you have the less you have to pay and VV. You keep repeating this iin the same way as someone learning 1 plus 1 equals 2 thonks they can do advanced calculus. Wages depend on location...ie London weighting or lower wages in rural areas. Higher wages pushes the cost of living up which is why not everyone wants to work in London. Wages also depend on productivity. If four people can do the work of five, you dismiss one and wages for the rest dont change. Wages depend on competition. If a competitive centre of production opens up down the road, wages have to be adjusted accordingly. Your overly simplistic formula for setting wages is only the first sentence of a long text on the subject. Transport drivers made their decisions based NOT ONLY on wages but also conditions. That is why so many refused work that involved crossing the channel. But if some were paid more to do so because others refused, their final wage would be eaten up by waiting times doo8ng paperwork and sitting in queues. Many just said no thanks, I'll take a lower wage and spend more time actually doing the job or being at home with the family. Which is what happened. Wages on the continent hardly changed...only to account for inflation and energy costs. But if they can do 50 trips a year on the continent, and only 40 if they have to stand and wait to cross the channel, they will take a lower hourly rate and end up better off. There is a catalogue of reasons why wages go up or down. If we take your theory to its logical conclusion, a company doing advanced genetic engineering can only offer wages commensurate with the profits or investment available. The company cant offer huge wages to a tiny pool of scientists unless they can cover those costs. So the availability of top level scientists is only a small part of the wage level offered. Widen your scope of understanding and move past the bleedin obvious.
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Post by oracle75 on Mar 14, 2023 11:49:35 GMT
Duplicate
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2023 12:19:55 GMT
If most of the sectors with labour shortages pay the National Minimum Wage ( care work - hospitality - catering - food production ), then how does the argument stack up that European migrant workers pushed down wages.
You legally cannot pay less than the minimum wage
As for truck drivers, partly due to Brexit, partly due to Covid, partly due to other factors including a change in regulations.
My original point about economics ... we have had very high levels of inflation, mostly due to rising business costs, mostly energy, but also wage costs.
Who do you think actually pays for higher wages in the haulage sector ?, you do, and I do, the costs are passed onto shops and supermarkets, and to businesses, pubs and other places where we all spend money, your loaf of bread and your block of cheese has gone up significantlly.
Who's actually better off
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Post by Vinny on Mar 14, 2023 13:07:18 GMT
If most of the sectors with labour shortages pay the National Minimum Wage ( care work - hospitality - catering - food production ), then how does the argument stack up that European migrant workers pushed down wages. You legally cannot pay less than the minimum wage But when the staff are asking for more, because they need more, and "ooh hello Eastern Europeans, don't trade unionise and you can have a job".... Wages are compressed. Because the traditional mechanism for raising the minimum wage has been suppressed. Besides, trucking didn't used to be a minimum wage job. Many of these jobs didn't. Greedy bosses employed cheaper labour because they could. And now they cannot, wages are rising.
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