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Post by Pacifico on Mar 12, 2023 23:00:37 GMT
FOM allows an employee to choose a job from a choice of 27 countries based on the same criteria, qualifications, workers rights and standards of safety. Not a choice of one. Exactly - it increases the competition for available jobs. So instead of a guy in Croydon competing against other workers looking for jobs in the UK he is also now competing against workers looking for jobs from 27 other countries. Faced with this tidal wave of job seekers its unsurprising that companies do not see the need to pay as much.
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Post by Steve on Mar 12, 2023 23:27:18 GMT
Exactly
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Post by zanygame on Mar 13, 2023 6:37:15 GMT
FOM allows an employee to choose a job from a choice of 27 countries based on the same criteria, qualifications, workers rights and standards of safety. Not a choice of one. Exactly - it increases the competition for available jobs. So instead of a guy in Croydon competing against other workers looking for jobs in the UK he is also now competing against workers looking for jobs from 27 other countries. Faced with this tidal wave of job seekers its unsurprising that companies do not see the need to pay as much. And what stops the job leaving Croydon.
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Post by Pacifico on Mar 13, 2023 7:54:43 GMT
Exactly - it increases the competition for available jobs. So instead of a guy in Croydon competing against other workers looking for jobs in the UK he is also now competing against workers looking for jobs from 27 other countries. Faced with this tidal wave of job seekers its unsurprising that companies do not see the need to pay as much. And what stops the job leaving Croydon. What - like when Ford got an EU grant to move production out of the UK you mean?
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Post by Vinny on Mar 13, 2023 9:45:01 GMT
It doesn't matter what the reason is, if you restrict the supply of labour wages go up. Which is precisely why the Freedom of Movement was bad for the British worker - it increased the available supply of labour and held wages down. In the end wages go to the person who can do the job cheapest. Except when the person cannot get hired because freedom of movement ended.
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Post by oracle75 on Mar 13, 2023 10:31:24 GMT
FOM allows an employee to choose a job from a choice of 27 countries based on the same criteria, qualifications, workers rights and standards of safety. Not a choice of one. Exactly - it increases the competition for available jobs. So instead of a guy in Croydon competing against other workers looking for jobs in the UK he is also now competing against workers looking for jobs from 27 other countries. Faced with this tidal wave of job seekers its unsurprising that companies do not see the need to pay as much. Companies pay for experience and talent. They entice the best applicants by offering better terms and conditions. Not worse. Brexit offered a high wage high skilled economy. You are touting a poorly skiled low wage economy. IOW a third world economy. Companies hire based on the projected rise in productivity they can offer the company. Not how many applicants are available. You are assuming that every potential applicant is identical. A terracotta army. The reality is that every applicant offers something different. And finally it is a common custom that if an applicant is offered a job, there is negotiation about the final terms of remuneration. Do I get a car? Shares in the company? Bonuses? An off shore account? Paid holiday? These could be a large percentage of a wage...I mean who wants to earn a high public wage when some of it can be paid in non taxable remuneration? Your very simple idea of supply and demand of labour determines wages is over 100 years old and I believe is a Marxist argument describing a reason for static class position. The way out is social fluidity through education and the opportunity to gain experience from a wide choice of offers. IOW freedom of movement in a level playing field.
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Post by oracle75 on Mar 13, 2023 10:37:01 GMT
FOM allows an employee to choose a job from a choice of 27 countries based on the same criteria, qualifications, workers rights and standards of safety. Not a choice of one. Exactly - it increases the competition for available jobs. So instead of a guy in Croydon competing against other workers looking for jobs in the UK he is also now competing against workers looking for jobs from 27 other countries. Faced with this tidal wave of job seekers its unsurprising that companies do not see the need to pay as much. No. Companies across the EU have to make their wages BETTER than the competition in order to attract applicants. Why would an insurance rep move to another country if the terms s/he is offered are no better than that which they have now?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2023 11:14:11 GMT
Economics can be ultra complex - but the basic framework of economics is straight forward.
A ready supply of labour can push down wages, but only to a degree, and only in certain sectors, mostly in unskilled jobs which pay the Minimum Wage ... you cannot drive down wages below the minimum wage. But I accept that a labour shortage CAN push up wages, as is happening in some areas now.
But the other and MORE IMPORTANT thing that a ready supply of labour does, is that it (A) allows existing business to grow and expand, and (B) creates the conditions for new businesses and new industries.
Shortages of unskilled labour in productive industry can force employers to increase wages, thereby increasing costs, often making products uncompetetive.
Europe still has Freedom Of Movement, and labour shortages are not as severe as here, and as a result UK growth is been affected, and some sectors in the food and agricultural industry have an uncertain future because of Brexit.
Our Salad Industry which flourished and grew because of European workers now has an uncertain future, and other producers and growers in the food industry are going to have growth and expansion plans put into question or put back.
Of course another basic of economics is that if YOUR workers get £15 per hour, and your competitor in Holland is paying £11, you lose out, you lose out to your Dutch competitor, and Aldi will sell Dutch Tomatoes NOT British ones.
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Post by Pacifico on Mar 13, 2023 11:42:43 GMT
Economics can be ultra complex - but the basic framework of economics is straight forward. A ready supply of labour can push down wages, but only to a degree, and only in certain sectors, mostly in unskilled jobs which pay the Minimum Wage ... you cannot drive down wages below the minimum wage. But I accept that a labour shortage CAN push up wages, as is happening in some areas now. But the other and MORE IMPORTANT thing that a ready supply of labour does, is that it (A) allows existing business to grow and expand, and (B) creates the conditions for new businesses and new industries.Shortages of unskilled labour in productive industry can force employers to increase wages, thereby increasing costs, often making products uncompetetive. Europe still has Freedom Of Movement, and labour shortages are not as severe as here, and as a result UK growth is been affected, and some sectors in the food and agricultural industry have an uncertain future because of Brexit. Our Salad Industry which flourished and grew because of European workers now has an uncertain future, and other producers and growers in the food industry are going to have growth and expansion plans put into question or put back. Of course another basic of economics is that if YOUR workers get £15 per hour, and your competitor in Holland is paying £11, you lose out, you lose out to your Dutch competitor, and Aldi will sell Dutch Tomatoes NOT British ones. Well we tried that with mass immigration and it had no effect on the growth of GDP per capita - for the average working man it gave no improvement in their life. It just increased competition of jobs.
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Post by Pacifico on Mar 13, 2023 11:45:14 GMT
Exactly - it increases the competition for available jobs. So instead of a guy in Croydon competing against other workers looking for jobs in the UK he is also now competing against workers looking for jobs from 27 other countries. Faced with this tidal wave of job seekers its unsurprising that companies do not see the need to pay as much. Companies pay for experience and talent. They entice the best applicants by offering better terms and conditions. Not worse. Brexit offered a high wage high skilled economy. You are touting a poorly skiled low wage economy. IOW a third world economy.
Not at all - I want businesses to move on from the low pay, low skill economy that 4 decades of EU membership gave us. Instead of just importing another batch of cheap foreign labour I want them to start investing in technology and training for the British worker.
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Post by Toreador on Mar 13, 2023 11:47:21 GMT
Exactly - it increases the competition for available jobs. So instead of a guy in Croydon competing against other workers looking for jobs in the UK he is also now competing against workers looking for jobs from 27 other countries. Faced with this tidal wave of job seekers its unsurprising that companies do not see the need to pay as much. Companies pay for experience and talent. They entice the best applicants by offering better terms and conditions. Not worse. Brexit offered a high wage high skilled economy. You are touting a poorly skiled low wage economy. IOW a third world economy. Companies hire based on the projected rise in productivity they can offer the company. Not how many applicants are available. You are assuming that every potential applicant is identical. A terracotta army. The reality is that every applicant offers something different. And finally it is a common custom that if an applicant is offered a job, there is negotiation about the final terms of remuneration. Do I get a car? Shares in the company? Bonuses? An off shore account? Paid holiday? These could be a large percentage of a wage...I mean who wants to earn a high public wage when some of it can be paid in non taxable remuneration? Your very simple idea of supply and demand of labour determines wages is over 100 years old and I believe is a Marxist argument describing a reason for static class position. The way out is social fluidity through education and the opportunity to gain experience from a wide choice of offers. IOW freedom of movement in a level playing field. Which has nothing to do with mass migrant labour as a result of FOM and I can't even be arsed to explain it.
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Post by Toreador on Mar 13, 2023 11:49:59 GMT
Economics can be ultra complex - but the basic framework of economics is straight forward. A ready supply of labour can push down wages, but only to a degree, and only in certain sectors, mostly in unskilled jobs which pay the Minimum Wage ... you cannot drive down wages below the minimum wage. But I accept that a labour shortage CAN push up wages, as is happening in some areas now. But the other and MORE IMPORTANT thing that a ready supply of labour does, is that it (A) allows existing business to grow and expand, and (B) creates the conditions for new businesses and new industries. Shortages of unskilled labour in productive industry can force employers to increase wages, thereby increasing costs, often making products uncompetetive. Europe still has Freedom Of Movement, and labour shortages are not as severe as here, and as a result UK growth is been affected, and some sectors in the food and agricultural industry have an uncertain future because of Brexit. Our Salad Industry which flourished and grew because of European workers now has an uncertain future, and other producers and growers in the food industry are going to have growth and expansion plans put into question or put back. Of course another basic of economics is that if YOUR workers get £15 per hour, and your competitor in Holland is paying £11, you lose out, you lose out to your Dutch competitor, and Aldi will sell Dutch Tomatoes NOT British ones. Yet another post that hasn't a clue about migrant labour arriving under FOM.
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Post by Vinny on Mar 13, 2023 11:51:16 GMT
Our salad industry has a bigger share of the domestic market than it used to.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2023 11:52:23 GMT
From the mid 1990s until the Credit Crisis and recession we had a long period of sustained growth, and though we had access to European labour, unemployment levels were low, jobs were readily available.
Industries that are now suffering the worst because of labour shortages are Hospitality, Catering, the Care sector, Food Production.
These sectors MOSTLY or MAINLY pay the National Minimum Wage, therefore to suggest that European workers pushed down wages is blatantly not true.
As per my previous post - put up your wages to attract people = higher production costs = you give your European competitor the edge = the supermarket sells the European produce = job losses
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2023 11:55:10 GMT
Our salad industry has a bigger share of the domestic market than it used to. Yes thats true, but it flourished and grew because of European labour, many of the jobs in this sector are basically jobs that British people dont want, and thats the reality of it.
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