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Post by Pacifico on Mar 12, 2023 8:25:07 GMT
It was never that simple. The standard of working conditions in the UK relative to elsewhere was a large factor in wgere drivers chose to work, including queuing for hours at ports which cost them money. Drivers wages went up all across Europe because of the fall of available labour due to Covid.
After restrictions were lifted, relatively few drivers volunteered to come to the UK. Distance and time spent being inactive reduced their takehome pay. Exactly - if you restrict the amount of available labour then wages rise - if you expand that pool of available labour (say through FoM) wages fall. Basic economics. |
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Post by Vinny on Mar 12, 2023 9:07:25 GMT
If insurance saleswoman in a Western European country can be undercut by an equally competent insurance saleswoman from Eastern Europe, wages are not going to go up.
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Post by Steve on Mar 12, 2023 11:32:24 GMT
It was never that simple. The standard of working conditions in the UK relative to elsewhere was a large factor in wgere drivers chose to work, including queuing for hours at ports which cost them money. Drivers wages went up all across Europe because of the fall of available labour due to Covid. After restrictions were lifted, relatively few drivers volunteered to come to the UK. Distance and time spent being inactive reduced their takehome pay. But you're plain wrong in your broad brush assertion that FoM raises wages, it clearly doesn't in the destination country in fact it depresses them. |
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Post by oracle75 on Mar 12, 2023 11:54:36 GMT
It was never that simple. The standard of working conditions in the UK relative to elsewhere was a large factor in wgere drivers chose to work, including queuing for hours at ports which cost them money. Drivers wages went up all across Europe because of the fall of available labour due to Covid.
After restrictions were lifted, relatively few drivers volunteered to come to the UK. Distance and time spent being inactive reduced their takehome pay. Exactly - if you restrict the amount of available labour then wages rise - if you expand that pool of available labour (say through FoM) wages fall. Basic economics. You have filtered out the important information I gave. The shortage was from covid AND THE FACT THAT DRIVERS DIDNT WANT TO GO TO THE UK AFTER BREXIT. Transport wages in Europe didnt fall. They went up in order to attract drivers from a large pool of available labour. The more company A pays, the more Driver A will work for them instead of company B. And wages are not the only determinant of where people choose to work. |
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Post by oracle75 on Mar 12, 2023 12:03:58 GMT
It was never that simple. The standard of working conditions in the UK relative to elsewhere was a large factor in wgere drivers chose to work, including queuing for hours at ports which cost them money. Drivers wages went up all across Europe because of the fall of available labour due to Covid. After restrictions were lifted, relatively few drivers volunteered to come to the UK. Distance and time spent being inactive reduced their takehome pay. But you're plain wrong in your broad brush assertion that FoM raises wages, it clearly doesn't in the destination country in fact it depresses them. If I were a sales rep selling insurance in Holland and was offered a salary of 20% of my sales, and saw a comparable job in Lithuania that paid 30% of my sales 0lus a health plan and a car, just where do you think I am going to try to go? Companies always attract employees by offering more than orher companies. That in the end is why CEO's are paid such huge sums. And they search out the highest pay across the world. The success of the company in profits is what allows companies to pay higher wages, not the number of available employees. |
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Post by Toreador on Mar 12, 2023 12:14:08 GMT
But you're plain wrong in your broad brush assertion that FoM raises wages, it clearly doesn't in the destination country in fact it depresses them.
Companies always attract employees by offering more than orher companies. That in the end is why CEO's are paid such huge sums. And they search out the highest pay across the world. The success of the company in profits is what allows companies to pay higher wages, not the number of available employees. I'd want to compare insurance cost in Lithuania to that in Holland. |If ther average cost of insurance in Lithuania was £20 and in Holland £30, what then. |
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Post by Pacifico on Mar 12, 2023 17:41:50 GMT
Exactly - if you restrict the amount of available labour then wages rise - if you expand that pool of available labour (say through FoM) wages fall. Basic economics. You have filtered out the important information I gave. The shortage was from covid AND THE FACT THAT DRIVERS DIDNT WANT TO GO TO THE UK AFTER BREXIT.
It doesn't matter what the reason is, if you restrict the supply of labour wages go up. Which is precisely why the Freedom of Movement was bad for the British worker - it increased the available supply of labour and held wages down. |
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Post by oracle75 on Mar 12, 2023 18:03:12 GMT
You have filtered out the important information I gave. The shortage was from covid AND THE FACT THAT DRIVERS DIDNT WANT TO GO TO THE UK AFTER BREXIT.
It doesn't matter what the reason is, if you restrict the supply of labour wages go up. Which is precisely why the Freedom of Movement was bad for the British worker - it increased the available supply of labour and held wages down. You are still trying to reduce a complicated concept into a kindergarten primer. Many businesses reduce their workforce to save money or because they have introduced labour saving technology, or shifted their major output to something less labour intensive. Many companies put up wages to grow their workforce and entice employees from somewhere else. Some companies put up wages because of union pressure. Some offer enticements like a car or shares or bonuses which arent taxable. Your repeated sungle equation is only one small part of a complex set of decisions companies make. Wages have gone up very little in the EU and there is the same amount of price squeeze as in the UK. It is mostly driven by inflation from the cost of energy, again like in the UK. Nor have profits surged. They are cautiously increasing . Hardly surging outside the petrochemical markets. The EU is very conscious of the new industrial revolution in renewable energy and not needing fossil fuels anymore. That is where serious profits will be made. |
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Post by Pacifico on Mar 12, 2023 18:16:19 GMT
It doesn't matter what the reason is, if you restrict the supply of labour wages go up. Which is precisely why the Freedom of Movement was bad for the British worker - it increased the available supply of labour and held wages down.
Many businesses reduce their workforce to save money or because they have introduced labour saving technology, or shifted their major output to something less labour intensive. Many companies put up wages to grow their workforce and entice employees from somewhere else. Some companies put up wages because of union pressure. Some offer enticements like a car or shares or bonuses which arent taxable. Your repeated sungle equation is only one small part of a complex set of decisions companies make. Not at all - just pointing out that your claim that 'FOM RAISES wages' is patently false - as you now seem to be admitting. |
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Post by oracle75 on Mar 12, 2023 19:33:09 GMT
FOM allows an employee to choose a job from a choice of 27 countries based on the same criteria, qualifications, workers rights and standards of safety.
Not a choice of one.
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Post by Toreador on Mar 12, 2023 19:34:41 GMT
FOM allows an employee to choose a job from a choice of 27 countries based on the same criteria, qualifications, workers rights and standards of safety.Not a choice of one. Only if they can read English. |
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Post by zanygame on Mar 12, 2023 20:25:10 GMT
Good post. I t is strange that there's so little coverage over here of the EU's intractable problems. But the day of reckoning is coming - and the longer it takes the worse it will be, like earthquakes. It's not strange Steppenwolf. It's obvious. Its very strange considering this is a nesting ground for Brexiteers. |
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Post by zanygame on Mar 12, 2023 20:49:33 GMT
You have filtered out the important information I gave. The shortage was from covid AND THE FACT THAT DRIVERS DIDNT WANT TO GO TO THE UK AFTER BREXIT.
It doesn't matter what the reason is, if you restrict the supply of labour wages go up. Which is precisely why the Freedom of Movement was bad for the British worker - it increased the available supply of labour and held wages down. In the end wages go to the person who can do the job cheapest. |
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Post by oracle75 on Mar 12, 2023 22:20:22 GMT
It doesn't matter what the reason is, if you restrict the supply of labour wages go up. Which is precisely why the Freedom of Movement was bad for the British worker - it increased the available supply of labour and held wages down. In the end wages go to the person who can do the job cheapest. And to those who decide to apply because their wage brings them the best standard of living based on costs of housing, taxation, education, hours expected to work, holidays and perks. The simplistic availability of labour is in the context of competition across 27 countries. The context being cost of housing, taxation, health care, education and contractural hours. Get real Pacifico and stop quoting page one of your kindergarten economics picturebook. Standard of living also includes those who value the job more than the wage as long as they are comfortable...teachers, health workers, carers, those whose vocation doesnt grasp at higher wages. There will always be enough of those. |
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Post by zanygame on Mar 12, 2023 22:44:12 GMT
In the end wages go to the person who can do the job cheapest. And to those who decide to apply because their wage brings them the best standard of living based on costs of housing, taxation, education, hours expected to work, holidays and perks. The simplistic availability of labour is in the context of competition across 27 countries. The context being cost of housing, taxation, health care, education and contractural hours. Get real Pacifico and stop quoting page one of your kindergarten economics picturebook. Standard of living also includes those who value the job more than the wage as long as they are comfortable...teachers, health workers, carers, those whose vocation doesnt grasp at higher wages. There will always be enough of those. In the end the jobs go to other countries, unless they can't, then they split between being better paid and disappearing. Look, I don't like it, I'm not chuffed with misery like so many on here. But as someone who employs a lot of people I am telling you the truth, unless you are selling an essential the price you can charge is what people will pay or your competition charge. That is what dictates the wage offered. When wages rose this year my company raised our pay rates by 12% but we also invested in technology and cut 24 jobs to afford it. So the reason wages are so low is that the customers want everything cheap. Cheap from China, don't care. Care about my fellow worker? Oh yes just so long as its not at my expense, blame the bosses, that's easy. |
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