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Post by thomas on Mar 10, 2023 15:42:43 GMT
We have never chosen our Head of State, the Tories made their choices , you may get your wish you may not and if you do you can argue with the nameless faceless penpushers and law makes in Brussels day and night, two hopes of that Now back to my country Very true. It was the Scottish Monarchy that forced the Union of Crowns prior to forcing the Union of Parliament Poor england. Are you telling me the bad scottish king conquered your country and took your crown? Fuck me you learn somthing new every day on this forum from brexiters.
scotland wasnt bankrupt. See my above quote. The historian michael lynch researched scotlands economic history , and found from 1697 to 1707 , the scottish economy was GROWING each year around 2.5 %. After the union of 1707 , the economy went into freefall for the next century......the union dividend.
A small number of tory lords in scotland had become in danger of defaulting on thier loans , and the scottish middle classes in the burghs were ready to take over. Talk about anglo saxon over the top exaggeration.
did they I read there was rioting against the union across both scotland and england.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2023 15:43:49 GMT
I'll stick to real history, not the cybernat bullshit.
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Post by thomas on Mar 10, 2023 15:45:50 GMT
I'll stick to real history, not the cybernat bullshit. ah ok.....what real history is that then?
That brings us to Darien and did it ‘bankrupt’ Scotland as we have long been told?
Michael Lynch argues strongly that this is a myth, propaganda put out later in the 18th century to hide the real reason for the 1707 Union going ahead. According to his research the Darien Company was funded by the erstwhile ‘Jacobite’ Highland lords involved with the English pounds from their treasure kists and by their lowland mainly ‘Tory’ counterparts through the raising of mortgages on their lands, funded from the savings of the Scottish Burgh’s growing middle class. The outcome of the English support of the Spanish to ensure Darien failed had consequences the Westminster Parliament apparently did not see or expect. The very group of Tory Lords they were relying on to ensure the Hanoverian succession vote in Edinburgh were now heading for personal bankruptcy with their lands in danger of being repossessed by the Burgh middle classes, in lieu of their debts. The fiscal core of Scotland, the Burgh’s, were not nor likely to become bankrupt as a result of the Darien failure.
At Westminster the Tories were back in control and, having long objected to the ‘Whigs’ policy of buying off of the Jacobite Highland Lords, according to Professor Stevenson, now switched the money to a one off payment to the Scottish ‘Tory’ lords; the deal - to ensure a bill of Parliamentary Union was passed. Stevenson and Lynch’s research suggests this shot gun marriage being one of political expediency for Westminster and fiscal expediency for many of the Tory landowners in Scotland.
Lynch points out that the new Union was unpopular on both sides of the border with riots in Scotland and England’s major cities and towns. By 1714 the economic impact on Scotland of the Union was such that the Earl of Selkirk put forward a bill in Westminster to end the Union which was filibustered out by the English Tories. Stevenson points out the Union did not solve the 18th Century Jacobite political threat either, with Edward Stewart getting to within a hundred or so miles of retaking the throne for the Stewarts in 1745.
In summing up: the historical evidence appears to show that as a nation Scotland did not gain economically from the Union in the 18th Century, in fact the reverse appears true as the Scottish economy was in free fall for around 75 years. Some historical economists argue Scotland never has had any real fiscal gain, at any point over the last 300 years of Union that it would not have achieved as an independent nation. Carol Craig argues in her book ‘The Scots Crisis of Confidence’ that part of the legacy of Union has been to reduce Scotland to a defacto colony of Westminster with all the social problems that are related to a colonised and demoralised people. Westminster has never really gained the political stability it was seeking on its northern border either and still has not; as the growing SNP hold on power in Holyrood, their current popularity and increasing vote share across Scotland indicates; As for the Hanoverians? They are still with us!
Clearly, I can not cover in detail the wide ranging evidence I have alluded to tonight but I offer you this thought maybe Robert Burn’s was right after all – ‘Bought an’ sold for English gold, Sic a parcel o’ rogues in a nation!’
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Post by Handyman on Mar 10, 2023 16:09:38 GMT
I'll stick to real history, not the cybernat bullshit. ah ok.....what real history is that then?
That brings us to Darien and did it ‘bankrupt’ Scotland as we have long been told?
Michael Lynch argues strongly that this is a myth, propaganda put out later in the 18th century to hide the real reason for the 1707 Union going ahead. According to his research the Darien Company was funded by the erstwhile ‘Jacobite’ Highland lords involved with the English pounds from their treasure kists and by their lowland mainly ‘Tory’ counterparts through the raising of mortgages on their lands, funded from the savings of the Scottish Burgh’s growing middle class. The outcome of the English support of the Spanish to ensure Darien failed had consequences the Westminster Parliament apparently did not see or expect. The very group of Tory Lords they were relying on to ensure the Hanoverian succession vote in Edinburgh were now heading for personal bankruptcy with their lands in danger of being repossessed by the Burgh middle classes, in lieu of their debts. The fiscal core of Scotland, the Burgh’s, were not nor likely to become bankrupt as a result of the Darien failure.
At Westminster the Tories were back in control and, having long objected to the ‘Whigs’ policy of buying off of the Jacobite Highland Lords, according to Professor Stevenson, now switched the money to a one off payment to the Scottish ‘Tory’ lords; the deal - to ensure a bill of Parliamentary Union was passed. Stevenson and Lynch’s research suggests this shot gun marriage being one of political expediency for Westminster and fiscal expediency for many of the Tory landowners in Scotland.
Lynch points out that the new Union was unpopular on both sides of the border with riots in Scotland and England’s major cities and towns. By 1714 the economic impact on Scotland of the Union was such that the Earl of Selkirk put forward a bill in Westminster to end the Union which was filibustered out by the English Tories. Stevenson points out the Union did not solve the 18th Century Jacobite political threat either, with Edward Stewart getting to within a hundred or so miles of retaking the throne for the Stewarts in 1745.
In summing up: the historical evidence appears to show that as a nation Scotland did not gain economically from the Union in the 18th Century, in fact the reverse appears true as the Scottish economy was in free fall for around 75 years. Some historical economists argue Scotland never has had any real fiscal gain, at any point over the last 300 years of Union that it would not have achieved as an independent nation. Carol Craig argues in her book ‘The Scots Crisis of Confidence’ that part of the legacy of Union has been to reduce Scotland to a defacto colony of Westminster with all the social problems that are related to a colonised and demoralised people. Westminster has never really gained the political stability it was seeking on its northern border either and still has not; as the growing SNP hold on power in Holyrood, their current popularity and increasing vote share across Scotland indicates; As for the Hanoverians? They are still with us!
Clearly, I can not cover in detail the wide ranging evidence I have alluded to tonight but I offer you this thought maybe Robert Burn’s was right after all – ‘Bought an’ sold for English gold, Sic a parcel o’ rogues in a nation!’
Who is We ? |
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Post by thomas on Mar 10, 2023 16:40:43 GMT
ah ok.....what real history is that then?
That brings us to Darien and did it ‘bankrupt’ Scotland as we have long been told?
Michael Lynch argues strongly that this is a myth, propaganda put out later in the 18th century to hide the real reason for the 1707 Union going ahead. According to his research the Darien Company was funded by the erstwhile ‘Jacobite’ Highland lords involved with the English pounds from their treasure kists and by their lowland mainly ‘Tory’ counterparts through the raising of mortgages on their lands, funded from the savings of the Scottish Burgh’s growing middle class. The outcome of the English support of the Spanish to ensure Darien failed had consequences the Westminster Parliament apparently did not see or expect. The very group of Tory Lords they were relying on to ensure the Hanoverian succession vote in Edinburgh were now heading for personal bankruptcy with their lands in danger of being repossessed by the Burgh middle classes, in lieu of their debts. The fiscal core of Scotland, the Burgh’s, were not nor likely to become bankrupt as a result of the Darien failure.
At Westminster the Tories were back in control and, having long objected to the ‘Whigs’ policy of buying off of the Jacobite Highland Lords, according to Professor Stevenson, now switched the money to a one off payment to the Scottish ‘Tory’ lords; the deal - to ensure a bill of Parliamentary Union was passed. Stevenson and Lynch’s research suggests this shot gun marriage being one of political expediency for Westminster and fiscal expediency for many of the Tory landowners in Scotland.
Lynch points out that the new Union was unpopular on both sides of the border with riots in Scotland and England’s major cities and towns. By 1714 the economic impact on Scotland of the Union was such that the Earl of Selkirk put forward a bill in Westminster to end the Union which was filibustered out by the English Tories. Stevenson points out the Union did not solve the 18th Century Jacobite political threat either, with Edward Stewart getting to within a hundred or so miles of retaking the throne for the Stewarts in 1745.
In summing up: the historical evidence appears to show that as a nation Scotland did not gain economically from the Union in the 18th Century, in fact the reverse appears true as the Scottish economy was in free fall for around 75 years. Some historical economists argue Scotland never has had any real fiscal gain, at any point over the last 300 years of Union that it would not have achieved as an independent nation. Carol Craig argues in her book ‘The Scots Crisis of Confidence’ that part of the legacy of Union has been to reduce Scotland to a defacto colony of Westminster with all the social problems that are related to a colonised and demoralised people. Westminster has never really gained the political stability it was seeking on its northern border either and still has not; as the growing SNP hold on power in Holyrood, their current popularity and increasing vote share across Scotland indicates; As for the Hanoverians? They are still with us!
Clearly, I can not cover in detail the wide ranging evidence I have alluded to tonight but I offer you this thought maybe Robert Burn’s was right after all – ‘Bought an’ sold for English gold, Sic a parcel o’ rogues in a nation!’
Who is We scottish. |
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Post by Handyman on Mar 10, 2023 18:27:15 GMT
Ah I thought you meant the Royal We  |
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Post by patman post on Mar 10, 2023 23:31:25 GMT
Why all this bitterness?
If Scotland wants to leave the EU, shouldn’t it really be for the people of Scotland to decide?
Apart from Northern Ireland, Scotland must be the most distinct and easily separate part of the UK — Wales has been so subsumed to the extent that separating it would be as difficult as hiving off Cornwall or Kent.
Personally I’d welcome a study into the desirability and viability of London and the southeast becoming and economic separate state and, if people agreed, I’d like it to be enacted.
When England and Great Britain was making enough of a mark on the rest of the world to put 25% of the world’s people under the colonial cosh, it was drawing on its international connections with the European mainland. Now it’s a European offshore island with a limited number of offshore possessions — and many of those are Crown lands. Therefore, I don’t understand why nostalgia for historical grandeur and strength should colour decisions on Britain’s future…
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Post by patman post on Mar 10, 2023 23:37:50 GMT
If Schottland gets its independence, will its relationship with the rest of the UK necessarily be much different than that of Ireland… you will be getting told off by your fellow english for going off project fear message ............ I’ve been told often enough that while I may be British, I can never be English. Frankly, that suits me, I like being a member of a wider open-minded community… |
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Post by thomas on Mar 12, 2023 13:06:04 GMT
you will be getting told off by your fellow english for going off project fear message ............ I’ve been told often enough that while I may be British, I can never be English. Frankly, that suits me, I like being a member of a wider open-minded community… Who told you you cant be english? Surely national identity is a personal choice through upbringing and your family.? |
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Post by thomas on Mar 12, 2023 14:38:41 GMT
Anyway , accorrding to reports the germans for scot independence march was successfull...
Europe for Scotland
@scotlandeurope
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15h
Congratulations to our friends at @germans4indyref
for a successful march in Berlin today. Beautiful to see Scottish and European flags across the German capital. Like Germany Scotland is and will always be at the heart of Europe #IndyBerlin23
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Post by patman post on Mar 12, 2023 14:55:42 GMT
I’ve been told often enough that while I may be British, I can never be English. Frankly, that suits me, I like being a member of a wider open-minded community… Who told you you cant be english? Surely national identity is a personal choice through upbringing and your family. Posters on various forums have — in their various defences of racial purity and suchlike — have remarked that because of my parentage, I cannot be English...
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Post by thomas on Mar 12, 2023 15:10:50 GMT
Who told you you cant be english? Surely national identity is a personal choice through upbringing and your family. Posters on various forums have — in their various defences of racial purity and suchlike — have remarked that because of my parentage, I cannot be English...
Thats disgracefull if true. Your national id is your business , no one elses. If you feel british , english or whatever , then no one can take that away from you. Fuck knows what parentage has to do with it.
Londoner , english , british , european , you can be one or all surely ?
All these people running around telling others what their identity is amuses me , as it shows a clear lack of understanding of the complexity of human identity.
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Post by Bentley on Mar 12, 2023 17:54:36 GMT
Anyway , accorrding to reports the germans for scot independence march was successfull...
Europe for Scotland
@scotlandeurope
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15h
Congratulations to our friends at @germans4indyref
for a successful march in Berlin today. Beautiful to see Scottish and European flags across the German capital. Like Germany Scotland is and will always be at the heart of Europe #IndyBerlin23
😁 There must bed at least 3 dozen of them. |
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Post by thomas on Mar 12, 2023 17:56:39 GMT
Anyway , accorrding to reports the germans for scot independence march was successfull...
Europe for Scotland
@scotlandeurope
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15h
Congratulations to our friends at @germans4indyref
for a successful march in Berlin today. Beautiful to see Scottish and European flags across the German capital. Like Germany Scotland is and will always be at the heart of Europe #IndyBerlin23
😁 There must bed at least 3 dozen of them. .....and of course it doesnt bother you at all.....  , you just felt the compelling need to pop over onto this thread and take valuable seconds of your life counting people in pictures.......  |
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Post by Bentley on Mar 12, 2023 17:58:21 GMT
😁 There must bed at least 3 dozen of them. .....and of course it doesnt bother you at all..... , you just felt the compelling need to pop over onto this thread and take valuable seconds of your life counting people in pictures....... You know me Tomas. Always ready to laugh at clowns .😁 |
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, you just felt the compelling need to pop over onto this thread and take valuable seconds of your life counting people in pictures....... 