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Post by Vinny on Mar 10, 2023 17:29:58 GMT
Fantasy
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2023 18:41:45 GMT
Yes, based on a delusion that a majority exists for independence. He goes on and on and on. Even if a snapshot vote managed to get a 50%+1 vote for independence, imagine the split it would cause in Scottish society. Worse than the UK 52-48 result. Thomas is ready to risk the cohesion of Scottish society for his project. |
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Post by Vinny on Mar 10, 2023 19:16:25 GMT
Yep, Scotland could split apart.
And obviously, were he to get his way, he wouldn't give the Scots a vote on rejoining the UK.
Because he's about as democratic, as Stalin.
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Post by happyjack on Mar 11, 2023 5:08:58 GMT
Urban myth' GERS figures debunked by Scottish economist's research
On hearing about the groundbreaking research, Robin Thompson – who had a career in economic development with various Scottish councils – applied Doyle’s methodology to GERS figures for the same year of 2018/19 in a bid to examine whether an independent Scotland would inherit the giant fiscal gap the UK Government often claims it would.
The GERS [Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland] figures for 2018/19 suggested the deficit in Scotland was £12.6bn, or 7% of GDP, but Thompson concluded an independent Scotland could actually inherit a surplus of £2.7bn.
GERS has been consistently criticised for only representing what Scotland’s economic situation is as part of the UK and gives no indication of what an independent Scotland would absorb.
Even in what Thompson regards as the “worst-case scenario” – where Scotland had to pay 100% of pension costs – he concluded the deficit would still only be £6.3bn or 3.4% of GDP
I can see nothing in the above (or in the link) that puts the slightest dent in the validity or reliability of GERS. Rather, this is yet another example of the YES movement desperately trying (but failing) to undermine the inconvenient truth of how dire the underlying fiscal position of a newly independent Scotland would be. |
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Post by thomas on Mar 12, 2023 13:20:42 GMT
Urban myth' GERS figures debunked by Scottish economist's research
On hearing about the groundbreaking research, Robin Thompson – who had a career in economic development with various Scottish councils – applied Doyle’s methodology to GERS figures for the same year of 2018/19 in a bid to examine whether an independent Scotland would inherit the giant fiscal gap the UK Government often claims it would.
The GERS [Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland] figures for 2018/19 suggested the deficit in Scotland was £12.6bn, or 7% of GDP, but Thompson concluded an independent Scotland could actually inherit a surplus of £2.7bn.
GERS has been consistently criticised for only representing what Scotland’s economic situation is as part of the UK and gives no indication of what an independent Scotland would absorb.
Even in what Thompson regards as the “worst-case scenario” – where Scotland had to pay 100% of pension costs – he concluded the deficit would still only be £6.3bn or 3.4% of GDP
I can see nothing in the above (or in the link) that puts the slightest dent in the validity or reliability of GERS. Rather, this is yet another example of the YES movement desperately trying (but failing) to undermine the inconvenient truth of how dire the underlying fiscal position of a newly independent Scotland would be. has the latest majority for indy poll prompted you to come back on the forum to argue the toss for your disintegrating union happy?
Should Scotland be an independent country? (Scot Goes Pop / Find Out Now, 1st - 9th March 2023)
Yes 52%
No 48%
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Post by happyjack on Mar 12, 2023 18:07:12 GMT
No, opinion polls matter not one bit to me because they are of no relevance right now. As I pointed out before, I believe that there is zero prospect of another referendum anytime soon, so wasting time picking over opinion polls or arguing about another referendum is pointless. I said all this before Sturgeon acknowledged that the Indy game’s a bogey by running up the white flag and stepping down as FM. Seeing the calibre of those vying to replace her (the cringeworthy performances and arguments of Ash Regan in particular) and the acknowledgement from an increasing number of SNP politicians that there is no realistic route to independence other than by increasing the level of support for Indy to the point where it can’t be ignored ( which, as I said before, if that didn’t happen during the Johnson/Sturgeon era then it is never going to happen) then I am even more confident than I was that independence is off the table for as far into the future as the eye can see.
So no, it isn’t opinion polls that have prompted me to pop up on this forum. Rather, it is to expose some of the endless crock of shit and alternative universe arguments that you keep posting on here that has motivated me to respond. From the quality of your vacuous “non-responses” to my recent batch of posts (all that you have done is to shape-shift and deflect) then I have obviously achieved what I set out to do.
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Post by thomas on Mar 14, 2023 16:27:35 GMT
No, opinion polls matter not one bit to me because they are of no relevance right now. As I pointed out before, I believe that there is zero prospect of another referendum anytime soon There is zero prosepct of a referendum any time soon. I agree. We have know moved on back to the old democratic route by using an election.
So while i agree individual polls taken in isolation , as both unionists and nationalists do from time to time when it suits ,dont matter in the grand scheme of things ,they do matter for showing trends over the longer term .
That trend is of course against the union , with every age group except the elderly now showing majority support for independence. The problems with your union dont depend on the snp losing holyrood , or the tories losing westmsinter , but go far far deeper , across many of the countries in this accursed union , of which scot indy , brexit and much else are mere symptoms not the problems.
The union was an imperialist construct , for better or worse , and that empire is now gone . It has no reason to exist. As time goes by , and little britian slides further down every league table going , more and more will question why we remain part of something that doesnt serve our needs , and those needs can be better served outside of .
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Post by happyjack on Mar 14, 2023 20:13:05 GMT
So what’s the plan to prevent deep economic self-harm and to achieve greater prosperity through independence instead?
BTW - if you mention anything about joining the EU then I will know that you don’t have a clue.
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Post by thomas on Mar 15, 2023 8:38:20 GMT
So what’s the plan to prevent deep economic self-harm and to achieve greater prosperity through independence instead? Whats the plan to prevent the deep economic harm , energy poverty on our energy rich scottish nation inflicted by the british , and achieve greater prosperity in the union isntead?
I mean the british have run scotlands economy for the last 316 years , and we have had consistent economic decline , mass emigration , fall in population in real terms compared to our souther neighbour , while our land and resources are used to fund another country to the detriment of our people. We have also for the umpteenth time in the union been cut off from our european brothers by the english government and their hatred of europe.
Whats your solution....... Carry on doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result?
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Post by happyjack on Mar 15, 2023 16:32:05 GMT
So, despite the fact, as Kate Forbes has correctly identified, that the key to bringing masses of No voters over to the Yes camp, thereby smashing any resistance to independence, is to assuage their fear of economic Armageddon and instead show that Scotland and its people will financially benefit from independence, you can offer nothing whatsoever. Instead, you fall back on self-pitying whingeing and grievance mongering as usual.
As I keep saying, if the Indy side had a case to make in favour of the economy in an Indy Scotland, they would be shouting it from the rooftops - but they haven’t and they aren’t. So the only logical conclusion is that they accept that independence will bring deep financial hardship to the Scottish people but they don’t care about that. If that is the case then why don’t they just admit it and make the case that a much poorer and financially vulnerable independent Scotland is preferable to the status quo. At least that would be honest and I could respect that.
As for my solution, it is the only sensible and responsible one, and one that most people do in their personal lives all of the time ie. don’t walk away from what you have until you have something better to replace it with.
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Post by thomas on Mar 16, 2023 8:30:30 GMT
So, despite the fact, as Kate Forbes has correctly identified, that the key to bringing masses of No voters over to the Yes camp, thereby smashing any resistance to independence, is to assuage their fear of economic Armageddon and instead show that Scotland and its people will financially benefit from independence, you can offer nothing whatsoever. Instead, you fall back on self-pitying whingeing and grievance mongering as usual. As I keep saying, if the Indy side had a case to make in favour of the economy in an Indy Scotland, they would be shouting it from the rooftops - but they haven’t and they aren’t. So the only logical conclusion is that they accept that independence will bring deep financial hardship to the Scottish people but they don’t care about that. If that is the case then why don’t they just admit it and make the case that a much poorer and financially vulnerable independent Scotland is preferable to the status quo. At least that would be honest and I could respect that. As for my solution, it is the only sensible and responsible one, and one that most people do in their personal lives all of the time ie. don’t walk away from what you have until you have something better to replace it with. So you cant indentify a positive case for the onion yet again ?
The union has been in decline for the last century , if not more , prior to the lifetime of any one on this forum. The republic has left , northern ireland has had thirty years of troubles that had to be sorted by international groups from the EU to the yanks getting involved to bring an uneasy peace , the old unitary state ended 24 years ago , and now brexit has further taken northern ireland one step out the door.
In scotland , every age group under the elderly supports indy by majority , the uk economy is in massive decline and scottish independence outside the uk but inside our european union looks increasingly the safe bet compared to staying in little brexit britain .
The british are making the case for scottish indy themselves .
You will be fighting scottish indy every single election the rest of your life ,one way or the other until the bonds that tie us into this british prison snap. Trying to sell scottish indy as a fearfull unkown , while telling people that britian is still somehow the safe haven that 45 % of scottish voters rejected in 2014 is laughable.
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Post by happyjack on Mar 16, 2023 10:46:15 GMT
I don’t need to present a positive case for the union but more about that later.
Let’s get back to the question which is “what’s the plan to prevent deep economic self-harm and to achieve greater prosperity through independence instead? “
You were unable to answer that first time around so instead tried to deflect. However, just in case I am being unfair, I will give you another chance and ask you once again, what’s the plan to prevent deep economic self-harm and to achieve greater prosperity through independence instead?
Now, back to the union. The only case for the union that matters, positive or otherwise, is that staying in it will prevent us from inflicting horrendous financial and economic self-harm upon ourselves and from reducing the circumstances of our needy and vulnerable to distressing levels. That seems like a good enough case to me.
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Post by happyjack on Mar 16, 2023 15:02:13 GMT
Which means that we will in a poorer position than we are in now, of course. |
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Post by borchester on Mar 16, 2023 16:50:43 GMT
Well Tommy, it looks as though you have sold yourself the idea, now all you need do is sell it to your fellow Scots  |
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Post by thomas on Mar 17, 2023 8:44:41 GMT
I don’t need to present a positive case for the union but more about that later. Let’s get back to the question which is “what’s the plan to prevent deep economic self-harm and to achieve greater prosperity through independence instead? “ You were unable to answer that first time around so instead tried to deflect. However, just in case I am being unfair, I will give you another chance and ask you once again, what’s the plan to prevent deep economic self-harm and to achieve greater prosperity through independence instead? Now, back to the union. The only case for the union that matters, positive or otherwise, is that staying in it will prevent us from inflicting horrendous financial and economic self-harm upon ourselves and from reducing the circumstances of our needy and vulnerable to distressing levels. That seems like a good enough case to me. so you demand i give you safeguards for independence and the mythical calamity of economic self harm if scotland dares to do what over 200 other nations do , and be an independent country.
Meanwhile , if i return the question to you , you ignore the events of the last decade and tell me you dont need to present a positive case for the union?
Its almost as if you are stuck pre 2014 , arguing indy is a basket case econmically while ignoring the basket case that is the uk.
Westmisnters out of control debt is costing every scot £80 000 . Brexit has cost ever scot circa £1200 and counting. The OBR has said brexit has caused a contraction to the uk economy of 5.5% , or some £33 billion. Business confidence and investment is down , all the things hardcore unionists told us would happen if we left the uk have happened because we stayed in the uk.
The idea you can somehow carry on as per pre 2014 , and pretend the uk is some economic safe haven scots would be mad to leave is of course laughable.
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