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Post by andrewbrown on Mar 9, 2023 8:06:24 GMT
The arguments have already been made. A fair and impartial jury found that Grey acted dangerously and stupidly. The court then went on to impose a harsh sentence because the defendant continued on to the shops to pick up her groceries completely indifferent to what had happened (though, this is disputed). It wasn't fair or impartial it wasn't based on the law. However you try and make out it was. You have tried to spin it around just by using non sequitur argument. Do you accept that it was an accident as a result of the lady's actions?
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Post by sheepy on Mar 9, 2023 8:15:28 GMT
It wasn't fair or impartial it wasn't based on the law. However you try and make out it was. You have tried to spin it around just by using non sequitur argument. Do you accept that it was an accident as a result of the lady's actions? I accept it was a tragic accident, but no charges should ever have come from it based on the law.
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Post by andrewbrown on Mar 9, 2023 8:23:47 GMT
Do you accept that the death was as a result of the lady's actions?
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Post by sheepy on Mar 9, 2023 8:28:42 GMT
Do you accept that the death was as a result of the lady's actions? Which Lady? the one who didn't follow the law and was killed or the partially blind Lady who was frustrated by a cyclist not following the law?
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Post by andrewbrown on Mar 9, 2023 9:45:16 GMT
The pedestrian.
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Post by Toreador on Mar 9, 2023 9:48:36 GMT
Which pedestrian?
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Post by sheepy on Mar 9, 2023 9:50:14 GMT
Certainly not, in that case as the Pedestrian has taken the can for the cyclist breaking the law. By not following the highway code.
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Post by sheepy on Mar 9, 2023 10:03:04 GMT
The one the lawyers stitched up milking a case that should have never existed. Now I have better things to do than listen to this nonsense.
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Post by Steve on Mar 9, 2023 10:51:24 GMT
Do you accept that the death was as a result of the lady's actions? I don't. No proof of causality is apparent. The police appear to have guessed that there was sufficient contact but given the limited width of the pavement (well less than the recommended 3 metres for shared pathways) and the apparent trajectory of the cycle it looks more like the cyclist thought there was a gap and lost control swerving into it instead of slowing down.
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Post by Steve on Mar 9, 2023 11:04:38 GMT
No I do not realise that. Without access to the transcript of the evidence given I don't know how multiple reports say the judge said that path is 2.4 metres wide and a shared pathway. I suspect the police gave evidence that way, I also suspect the judge made same sus statements when instructing the jury in his summing up If either is the case she should appeal conviction and sentence but we do not know exactly what she is appealing Would you mind explaining why you think the width of the path is relevant? What sort of 'sus statements' are you talking about? Here is another article (dated yesterday) that says that Grey is only appealing her sentence, not her conviction. Of course, it could be incorrect, but given that all reports are that she is only appealing the sentence, we can at least assume this is the case: metro.co.uk/2023/03/08/auriol-grey-huntingdon-woman-jailed-for-killing-cyclist-lodges-appeal-18404163/1. the width is very relevant because (a) it is linked to the credulity of the belief of the cyclist and pedestrian that it was or wasn't a shared path. The narrower the less likely the cyclists belief it was and the more likely the pedestrian was fair to believe she was entitled to stand her ground; (b) because the narrower the even less likely it is that is was legally a shared path and the more likely the cyclist was travelling illegally endangering pedestrians who had fair right to raise an arm in self defence (c) if it is not 2.4 metres (and it certainly looks that way) then either the judge or the police are lying and that means the whole case should be reheard 2. the 'sus statements' have been previously explained to you in terms an idiot could understand. They are the 'shared path' and '2.4 metres' 3. the article you link to does not say she is only appealing against sentence. I suspect that is the case because she likely has to rely on legal aid.
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Post by Steve on Mar 9, 2023 11:09:30 GMT
Interesting www.cambsnews.co.uk/news/huntingdon-sign-doubt-raises-question-mark-over-manslaughter-verdict/8173/ 'A key issue in the conviction of a Huntingdon woman for manslaughter is whether a sign indicating dual cycle and pedestrian use on a footpath was there at the time of a cyclist’s death.
An investigation by CambsNews has thrown doubt whether the sign in Nursery Road – that closest to where the death occurred – was there when Cecilia Ward, 77, fell into the path of an ongoing car and died.
Photographic evidence shows that the current sign was made in 2022 – so therefore installed two years after Auriol Grey gestured in a “hostile and aggressive” manner and told Celia Ward to “get off the f**** pavement”.
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Post by Einhorn on Mar 9, 2023 11:09:51 GMT
Do you accept that the death was as a result of the lady's actions? I don't. No proof of causality is apparent. The police appear to have guessed that there was sufficient contact but given the limited width of the pavement (well less than the recommended 3 metres for shared pathways) and the apparent trajectory of the cycle it looks more like the cyclist thought there was a gap and lost control swerving into it instead of slowing down. Your understanding of 'causality' would appear to be very different from the law's. The law applies a 'but for' test. The test is: would this woman have fallen into the traffic but for the defendant's actions'. It's very apparent she would not. It's no surprise whatsoever that the jury saw a causal link between Grey's bad tempered behaviour and the victim's death.
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Post by Einhorn on Mar 9, 2023 11:17:16 GMT
Interesting www.cambsnews.co.uk/news/huntingdon-sign-doubt-raises-question-mark-over-manslaughter-verdict/8173/ y the conviction of a Huntingdon woman for manslaughter is whether a sign indicating dual cycle and pedestrian use on a footpath was there at the time of a cyclist’s death.
An investigation by CambsNews has thrown doubt whether the sign in Nursery Road – that closest to where the death occurred – was there when Cecilia Ward, 77, fell into the path of an ongoing car and died.
Photographic evidence shows that the current sign was made in 2022 – so therefore installed two years after Auriol Grey gestured in a “hostile and aggressive” manner and told Celia Ward to “get off the f**** pavement”.Interesting to you, maybe. Anyone who understands the law will know that nothing of importance turns on the issue of whether it was a dual use footpath. Suppose two neighbours are having a dispute about the boundary between their properties. Suppose one neighbour walks onto an area of the land the other neighbour claims is his. If that neighbour takes a baseball bat and beats the 'trespassing' neighbour within an inch of his life, the subsequent trial will not focus on the question of who actually owned the land and whether the victim was actually a trespasser. That's not important. Because you are not entitled to beat someone with a baseball bat even if they are trespassing. Similarly, you are not allowed to endanger someone's life for breaching the Highway Code.
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Post by Equivocal on Mar 9, 2023 11:50:41 GMT
For information the directions & sentencing remarks
DIRECTIONS
Burden of proof
The prosecution must prove that the defendant is guilty. She does not have to prove her innocence. Standard of proof The prosecution proves the defendant's guilt by making you sure of it. Nothing less than that will do. Manslaughter A person commits manslaughter is he/she does an unlawful act that a sane and reasonable person would realise would inevitably expose another person to the risk of some harm ( and that other person dies as a result). If you concluded that what took place was or may have been an accident, then you will find the defendant not guilty. If you were sure that what took place was not an accident but found that defendant was or may have been acting in self-defence, then you will find her not guilty. 2 WHAT IS SELF DEFENCE? In summary 1. A person who thinks she is under threat may use force to defend herself and, as long as she uses reasonable force she will be acting in lawful self-defence. 2. It is for the Crown to prove, that the defendant was not acting in self-defence. 3 It is a two stage test. Stage 1 – did she feel under threat (subjective) 4. You must first ask did she honestly believe that it was necessary to use force to defend herself? She is not deprived of this defence simply because she was mistaken about the need to use force. If you are sure that she did not believe it was necessary to use force, then self-defence fails, and the force used would be unlawful. If she may have believed it was necessary to use force, go on to the second stage. Stage 2 – reasonable force (objective). 5. You must then decide whether the type and amount of force she used was reasonable. A person who is under threat may react on the spur of the moment and cannot be expected to work out exactly how much force she needs to use and everyone has a degree of latitude in that situation. If the reality is that she used no more force than she instinctively thought necessary, that would be good evidence that the force used was reasonable and therefore lawful. 3 6. If you conclude the defendant was or may have been acting in lawful self-defence you must find her not guilty and that is the end of the case, and you will go no further. 7. However, if she used force out of all proportion to the situation she faced, then the force used would not be reasonable and her actions would be unlawful. 8. If you reject self-defence, it means you have found that she used unlawful force. You will then ask: would a sane and reasonable person realise that in doing what she did, would inevitably expose another person to the risk of some harm? If yes, verdict guilty. If no, verdict not guilty. 4 ROUTE TO VERDICT (After you have had a full discussion about the issues you will need to make decisions, and if you follow this route to verdict it will help you return a verdict which in accordance with the law) Q 1 Was what took place or may it have been an accident? If so, your verdict is not guilty. Go no further. If not, go to Q2. Q 2 Did she believe, or may she have believed it was necessary to use force to defend herself? If not, self-defence fails and you will go straight to Q4. If yes, go to Q3. Q3 Was the force that she used reasonable or may it have been reasonable? If yes, verdict not guilty. Go no further. If no, self-defence fails. Go to Q4. Q4 Would a sane and reasonable person realise that doing what she did, would inevitably expose Mrs Ward to some harm? If yes, verdict guilty. Go no further. If no, verdict not guilty. 5 THE DEFENDANT’S SILENCE AT TRIAL The defendant has chosen not to give evidence in support of her defence. A warning You must remember that the defendant has a perfect right not to give evidence and to require the prosecution to prove its case. You cannot jump to the conclusion that her silence proves the case against her. It does not. The burden remains on the prosecution to prove its case so that you are sure. How may the defendant’s silence be relevant to the case? There is no evidence before you to contradict or undermine the evidence for the prosecution save for what the defendant said in interview. You will appreciate those answers carry less weight than sworn evidence because they were not given on oath and were not tested in cross examination. What point do the prosecution make? The prosecution argue that the reason why the defendant has remained silent is that she has no answer to the prosecution case or none that would stand up to examination. What do you need to be satisfied of before accepting that argument? You should only act on that argument if you regard the Prosecution case as sufficiently strong to require an answer from her, and you are sure that the only sensible explanation for her silence is her awareness that she has no answer, or none that would bear examination. 6 GOOD CHARACTER The defendant has no criminal convictions, cautions or reprimands and you have heard evidence about her character from three witnesses. 1 This is a factor which you should take into account when deciding whether you believe what she said in interview. 2. The fact that she is of good character means that she has no known propensity to commit offences and is therefore less likely to have committed this offence. These are matters to which you should have regard in the defendant's favour. EXPERT EVIDENCE Experts are entitled to give their opinion evidence on matters outside the knowledge of lay people. None of the expert evidence is in dispute and there is no rational basis to depart from it.
SENTENCING
You have been convicted of manslaughter after a re-trial. You gave no evidence at trial one or two. In broad terms, the issue at trial was whether what took place might have been an accident, self-defence or unlawful violence. You were convicted unanimously by the jury.
Most of what took place was captured on camera footage. You were walking on the pavement. You resented the presence of an oncoming cyclist. The footage shows you shouting aggressively and waving your left arm. You do not stop, slow down or move to one side. You are territorial about the pavement and not worried for your own safety. After careful thought, I concluded these actions are not explained by your disabilities.
The court heard evidence from a number of witnesses, and I found William Walker to be reliable and thoughtful. He is a cyclist and driver. He said that you and Mrs Ward appeared to have come to a halt in front of each other and you made a lateral sweeping movement with your left arm which was directed at Mrs Ward. He said “it either made contact or she recoiled and fell”. She fell into the busy ring road where she was killed by a passing car driven by Carla Money.
This was, I think, a shared path for cyclists and pedestrians that allowed them to go around the busy ring road. The vital point is this: I am sure you knew cyclists used that path and you were not taken by surprise or in fear for your safety. The path at the point of collision 2.4 metres wide.
I have considered the evidence about eyesight and the CCTV footage and visual impairment was not a factor in this incident.
You and Mrs Ward both welcomed the safety of the pavement. She because she was an elderly cyclist and you because of your disabilities. Consideration for other road users is the lesson of this tragic case. We are all road users, whether as motorists, cyclists or on foot.
I have been referred to the guidelines on unlawful act manslaughter issued by the Sentencing Council and have heard submissions from both parties.
In terms of the guidance, looking at these matters in the round, culpability C is made out, but towards the lower end of the scale.
A starting point of four years seems just, based on my finding that the sweep of your arm was an intentional act but being reckless as to whether harm would be caused.
I reject the submission that this is best framed in terms of category D for reasons I have indicated.
Aggravating factors The vulnerability of Mrs Ward who was on a bike.
The effect on Mrs Carla Money (in so far as her first statement extends). Her enduring distress is entirely foreseeable.
Matters reducing seriousness and personal mitigation You offered assistance at the scene, but you were turned away by others. But, on the other hand, you then left before police arrived and went off to do shopping. You were evasive when police traced you and told lies in interview.
You have no convictions or cautions or reprimands. You are 49 years old. This stands to your credit.
Your medical history and significant disabilities would have crushed many but you have endured all that in a commendable way. Until now have demonstrated a positive lifestyle and I have no doubt that over the years you have endured all kinds of difficulties when going around the town centre which may have made you angry on this occasion. In any event, your prior good character stands to your credit.
Is there a mental disorder bearing on these issues? I do not think so.
As to learning difficulties, there are none. Much was made in cross examination of what witnesses referred to as a “childlike face”. In fact you went to a mainstream school and denied in interview having any impairment of intellect. That is not decisive, in my view and I put it to one side. Both experts suggested that the childhood surgery resulted in “a degree of cognitive impairment”. (In my view, these difficulties do not bear on your understanding of what is right and wrong and what is appropriate or not). I should say that I saw the video your police interviews, I read the character statements detailing your lifestyle. I have also read the pre-sentence report and medical evidence and have learned as much about you as I can.
Remorse. There has not been a word about remorse from you until the pre-sentence report was prepared, and here there is a reference to remorse which has never been passed on to the Ward family. In this regard I accept your counsel’s explanation that this may be a function of your disabilities and do not hold it against you.
There has been a delay in getting this case to trial. This is a mitigating factor I must take into account in your favour.
I also take into account the particular difficulties, occasioned by your disabilities, that you will face in prison and when you emerge.
Balancing all these considerations, the proper sentence is three years imprisonment.
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Post by Handyman on Mar 9, 2023 13:04:54 GMT
Bang on the claim that the Judge Summing up was suspect is total bollocks, Judges when sending the Jury out to reach a verdict simply remind the Jury about what they have been told heard and shown by both sides the Crown and Defence, and make their minds up.
In relation to Wards Appeal has already been longed with the Court of Appeal , the Appeal is against the sentence imposed on her not her conviction
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