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Post by Orac on Feb 18, 2023 12:12:07 GMT
I don't think you can accept Co2 production is created by each human being. China produces more because its a vast country with many more people. That does not excuse us from dealing with our Co2 production. Your argument is so ridiculous it almost defies discussion. What if every smaller country in the world followed your lead, how long before that Co2 pollution dwarfed China's. We have so little industry and record high energy costs that there's not a hope in hell of nature even noticing us, because there's no way to compete with the globalist setup.
If you're worried about the number of people in the UK, then so were those who were more opposed to free-movement and mass-immigration, which led to that conservative estimate of a 10 million people population increase recently. Thanks to that we are further away from being self-sufficient.
It's just odd that you, a EUphile and supporter of free-movement (mass-immigraion too, no doubt), would be so concerned about emissions now. It all seems dishonest and just another opportunity to try and screw us.
I really don't think Zany is malicious, but he has been so misled and confused that he may as well be. Let's do a review - Zany is very keen on membership of the EU - a situation which significantly and meaningfully dilutes the democratic discretion of the UK population. Failing that, Zany is very keen on loading the UK government with obscene amounts of a debt - a situation which would result in a significant dilution of the democratic discretion and power of the UK population Failing that? Zany is very keen on using government pressure to remove technical facility (tools) from the reach of the UK population - a resolution which would result in impoverishment and a significant dilution of the democratic discretion of the UK population Failing that, Zany would / will be very keen on carbon governance being handed over to some kind of world government body - a resolution which would result in impoverishment and a significant dilution of the democratic discretion of the UK population (not to mention the total snuffing out of the western world and a collapse of civilisation as we know it) All this may become irrelevant because a threat to humanity, that is likely even more profound than Zany's crazy political positions, has recently emerged. Everyone is talking about it. |
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Post by Toreador on Feb 18, 2023 12:26:40 GMT
China also produces our goods for us. And I asked you for some numbers relating to these two factors. There is no need because (for the tenth time) I'm not arguing that china is doing anything wrong. I'm arguing that impoverishing us further will make no odds The reason you keep coming back to this silly motif of blame is because you are searching for rationales to blame and beat down a particular group. This fixation is likely not your fault btw - someone hypnotised youlol encore.  |
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Post by Orac on Feb 18, 2023 12:28:09 GMT
"Three, two, one.." (clicks fingers) "..and you are back in the room"
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Post by Toreador on Feb 18, 2023 12:32:03 GMT
"Three, two, one.." (clicks fingers) "..and you are back in the room" Mais oui....encore, just golloped me poisson at French fries. Now can you lay off the unintended humour until me dejeuner has gotten further into the gastric system. |
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Post by zanygame on Feb 18, 2023 13:19:03 GMT
China also produces our goods for us. And I asked you for some numbers relating to these two factors. There is no need because (for the tenth time) I'm not arguing that china is doing anything wrong. I'm arguing that impoverishing us further will make no odds The reason you keep coming back to this silly motif of blame is because you are searching for rationales to blame and beat down a particular group. This fixation is likely not your fault btw - someone hypnotised you More meaningless words telling me what I think. Firstly China IS doing things about agw they ARE concerned about global warming. Secondly I do not sign up to your idea that our continuing moves towards net zero are to beat people down. Finally until you address the reasons behind China's contribution to global warming, your argument that we need do nothing because of them is mute. |
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Post by zanygame on Feb 18, 2023 13:28:49 GMT
I don't think you can accept Co2 production is created by each human being. China produces more because its a vast country with many more people. That does not excuse us from dealing with our Co2 production. Your argument is so ridiculous it almost defies discussion. What if every smaller country in the world followed your lead, how long before that Co2 pollution dwarfed China's. We have so little industry and record high energy costs that there's not a hope in hell of nature even noticing us, because there's no way to compete with the globalist setup.
If you're worried about the number of people in the UK, then so were those who were more opposed to free-movement and mass-immigration, which led to that conservative estimate of a 10 million people population increase recently. Thanks to that we are further away from being self-sufficient.
It's just odd that you, a EUphile and supporter of free-movement (mass-immigraion too, no doubt), would be so concerned about emissions now. It all seems dishonest and just another opportunity to try and screw us.
Its hard for me to imagine how anyone could so misunderstand the conversation. 1, Our record energy costs have NOTHING to do with net zero regulations. 2,I have not mentioned to population density of the UK. I have only talked about emissions per person. (Population density has no effect on this) 3, You seem not to have the decency or presence of mind to actually asking me my opinion on UK immigration. (An entirely different subject) But for you information, I am against further immigration because I believe the UK is overcrowded and the infrastructure insufficient for our current population. I am a Europhile, but was of the opinion that we could have negotiated FoM without leaving. There. Go smoke that for a minute. |
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Post by zanygame on Feb 18, 2023 13:30:09 GMT
"Three, two, one.." (clicks fingers) "..and you are back in the room" If you want to know when you've lost the plot, a good indication is that Sally starts clapping.  |
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Post by Orac on Feb 18, 2023 13:47:31 GMT
Secondly I do not sign up to your idea that our continuing moves towards net zero are to beat people down. You don't think about it like that because you have been told not to. However, you clearly have that objective as a memetic in your position. This is why, despite my continuous corrections, you kept on insisting I was making an argument I was not making. You needed the conversation to be about blame, so you could employ arguments for laying blame on a particular group and targeting that group. The only reason you entered the conversation at all is because you felt those arguments for particular targeting and blame were being challenged and you wanted them to be re-enforced. |
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Post by zanygame on Feb 18, 2023 14:23:53 GMT
Why does CO2 matter? The problem has arisen because various international lobbying bodies have convinced governments and people that it is an issue. However, nobody can say to what degree (pun intended) CO2 is a problem or indeed if it actually is a problem! The only way this whole narrative works is if one accepts that the whole of the planet's climate is solely governed by a "greenhouse effect" system which it isn't so arguing about CO2 or Net Zero is pretty much pointless! If (and I do) one accepts that looking after the environment is essential then fine but that is a completely different issue. Co2 matters because it causes warming. That is a scientific fact. Exactly how much it will warm cannot be accurately calculated, but it will warm and it is bad for both us and nature. We can never work out exactly how many people cancer will kill, but that doesn't mean we should start tackling it until we do. As for the international lobbying bodies, they seem to have been able to convince pretty much every expert and government around the planet. Including China. But even cleverer, they have managed to actually raise Earths temperature as well. (Quite a magic trick) |
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Post by patman post on Feb 18, 2023 14:27:02 GMT
War and Peace is a literary work by the Russian author Leo Tolstoy that mixes fictional narrative with chapters on history and philosophy — that’s Wiki’s take on it, and also a relevant appraisal of many forum posts. Don’t see Energy Security and Net Zero as a “contradiction in terms” — it’s not going to be easy, but if the UK achieves net zero over the next quarter century from its own energy production, supply and use, it is more likely to be more secure than if it remained dependent on imported gas, oil, and imported electricity. There’s also the task of maintaining energy security while working towards net zero. Net zero technologies could also prove profitable for the UK… |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2023 14:53:35 GMT
We have so little industry and record high energy costs that there's not a hope in hell of nature even noticing us, because there's no way to compete with the globalist setup.
If you're worried about the number of people in the UK, then so were those who were more opposed to free-movement and mass-immigration, which led to that conservative estimate of a 10 million people population increase recently. Thanks to that we are further away from being self-sufficient.
It's just odd that you, a EUphile and supporter of free-movement (mass-immigraion too, no doubt), would be so concerned about emissions now. It all seems dishonest and just another opportunity to try and screw us.
I really don't think Zany is malicious, but he has been so misled and confused that he may as well be. Let's do a review - Zany is very keen on membership of the EU - a situation which significantly and meaningfully dilutes the democratic discretion of the UK population. Failing that, Zany is very keen on loading the UK government with obscene amounts of a debt - a situation which would result in a significant dilution of the democratic discretion and power of the UK population Failing that? Zany is very keen on using government pressure to remove technical facility (tools) from the reach of the UK population - a resolution which would result in impoverishment and a significant dilution of the democratic discretion of the UK population Failing that, Zany would / will be very keen on carbon governance being handed over to some kind of world government body - a resolution which would result in impoverishment and a significant dilution of the democratic discretion of the UK population (not to mention the total snuffing out of the western world and a collapse of civilisation as we know it) All this may become irrelevant because a threat to humanity, that is likely even more profound than Zany's crazy political positions, has recently emerged. Everyone is talking about it. There's definitely a sharp supremacist attitude at work, which seems act as a defence mechanism to close down any rational argument (a preacher). The default position is to try and belittle those who disagree (we are obviously inferior) from an imagined ivory tower and maintain momentum, and if this is down to, what I can only infer, a weak mind, then it demonstrates just how dangerous things can be.
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Post by zanygame on Feb 18, 2023 16:04:18 GMT
We seem to have stopped discussing the facts and theories and started making personal slights on the individual. I would report Mags to Mags, but well...
I think I'll leave you to your fun.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2023 16:23:30 GMT
Co2 matters because it causes warming. That is a scientific fact. Exactly how much it will warm cannot be accurately calculated, but it will warm and it is bad for both us and nature. We can never work out exactly how many people cancer will kill, but that doesn't mean we should start tackling it until we do. As for the international lobbying bodies, they seem to have been able to convince pretty much every expert and government around the planet. Including China. But even cleverer, they have managed to actually raise Earths temperature as well. (Quite a magic trick) Does CO2 matter? I mean its an interesting chemical, but does it actually matter if it is only a tiny fraction of the all the other factors which operate to increase and decrease the planets climate? The planet warms and cools all the time, and as you say everyone knows that, but nobody can claim to quantify which mechanisms cause what amount of warnming or cooling. To take one chemical and then by cherry picking certain atributes of that chemical and assigning it as a precursoy to planetary catastrophe is foolish! The extent to which CO2 contributes is generally recognised as marginal and really cannot be measured as it is such a small element within a planetary system of which science hasn't yet managed to understand. Again, the issue is that the planet's climate system is not solely governed by a greenhouse effect, therefore, the assignement of one chemical to a massive system is nonsensical.
I agree the climate lobby has been very good at alarming people and technicians have likewise been very good at creating info-graphics showing up-ticks on graphs leading people into thinking we are on the cusp of cataclysmic climate failure. It's the way of human nature which tends to react more to bad news than good, so more alarming news makes for better coverage of an imaginary problem - which feeds back into climate lobbyists whole distorted narrative. Ultimately its turned into a money making machine. So yes, I agree it's a very good trick that's been pulled off as it has nothing whatsoever to do with planetary energy managment.
In a nutshell CO2 has basically very little to do with planetary climate variation, "Climate Scientists" don't agree on that but Scientists do.
I agree. The notion there is a climate emergency is pure fantasy and delusion. |
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Post by Orac on Feb 18, 2023 16:34:50 GMT
There's definitely a sharp supremacist attitude at work, which seems act as a defence mechanism to close down any rational argument (a preacher). The default position is to try and belittle those who disagree (we are obviously inferior) from an imagined ivory tower and maintain momentum, and if this is down to, what I can only infer, a weak mind, then it demonstrates just how dangerous things can be. Us humans are first and foremost creatures of emotion, status and self image, but we also have a very secondary, mostly unused, ability to think (if we are really stuck) The elitism thing is definitely there - and i feel this particular formulation for elitism goes back to one Tony Blair. Tony Blair taught the world how to be dismissive while at the same time eliciting sympathy. Recall his technique - if a valid sounding criticism were pressed, he would pause, take a breath and begin his next sentence with the sigh-exhaled word 'look', as if talking to a difficult nine-year-old. It was a routine that worked every time, because it presented the inquirer with the prospect of further pursuing a line of enquiry publicly with a clearly exasperated parent who already had a lot of very heavy issues on his plate. The technique was incredibly aggressive but covertly so. He pulled this off again and again and again and is still using the technique today. If one person had managed to defeat this magic charm and resist the invocation to imagine themselves as a child challenging a parent, Tony Blair could have been destroyed. Zany is not exactly doing this, but Zany has been bedazzled by Tony's entrainment. The whole subconscious sorting of society between 'parents" (the elite cast) and children (those with objections) remained in society after Blair's demise and still forms the framework of the public conversation today. This is a large part of why things are going so badly off the rails - a proper public conversation is no longer happening, rather the self appointed 'parents' are just talking to themselves and going increasingly insane and autocratic in their own echo-chamber. |
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Post by Toreador on Feb 18, 2023 17:16:01 GMT
"Three, two, one.." (clicks fingers) "..and you are back in the room" If you want to know when you've lost the plot, a good indication is that Sally starts clapping. Sally was laughing at a funny, not clapping, Zany is the one ever waving his hands in the air about nothing. |
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