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Post by steppenwolf on Jan 30, 2023 7:25:25 GMT
We don't know the details of why there was a disagreement of the accuracy of his tax declaration. As I say, if you've got as much money as Zahawi you don't do your own tax return - unless you're also an accountant. And Zahawi would have to be very stupid to make a false declaration. It's possible of course but very unlikely. I'd guess what happened was that HMRC took a different view from Zahawi's accountant on how much his tax liability should be and they were arguing about it. And, as I said, in my experience it's by no means impossible that the HMRC was wrong. Then what happened is that the press got on to it and Zahawi just decided to pay it for a quiet life - and HMRC hit him with a fine. And that of course made it even worse. I don't think we've heard the last of this because Zahawi thinks he's been hard done by. The usual lefty arseholes hypocritical will make sure we haven't heard the last of of it mate....... Indeed. In fact I think it's possible that this whole thing is another example of the civil service getting their own back on the Tories. Now they reckon that the Tories will be booted out at the next GE they are settling a few old scores.
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Post by Pacifico on Jan 30, 2023 7:39:58 GMT
So Sunak now sacks the only member of the Government who believes in lower taxation..
The Conservatives will be renaming themselves 'New Labour' at this rate - they already have all the same policies so may as well go the whole hog..
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Post by johnofgwent on Jan 30, 2023 7:59:25 GMT
To be FINED 5 million begs the question, just how creative can one ex chancellor be? Apparently that was the highest fine that can be imposed. Ok my turn He wasn’t FINED five million. HMRC invited him to agree with their assessment that : A) he had not acted within THEIR interpretation of the Income and Corporation Taxes Act 1988 B) the amount to which he had failed to operate by THEIR definition was ‘x’ C) as a result of that failure he now owed them ‘x’ plus interest at the official rate of 8%, compounding daily until payment, and in addition D) he also, because they judged his action to be both deliberate and carried out in full knowledge of above statute, he was being surcharged a penalty of 30 % of x plus compound interest It is the 30% penalty rate that is the highest they can impose AND THAT E) if he wished to dispute this he was free to go to a tribunal while the interest rose daily and the penalty too It was the TOTAL of x + compound interest + penalty that amounted to the five million Those of us who have clashed with the Inland Revenue in the past will tell you the tribunal works on the reverse of natural justice in that you are presumed guilty until you prove yourself innocent. I’m no fan of the shithead but the twat chose to pay up for an easy life hoping it would go away instead of fighting them. These are the real facts of the matter. Nobody knows what would have occurred had he taken the bastards on and unfortunately he had made it harder for the next person they come after to hit back. Having said all that … Not declaring this at the time, and taking the job as head of said gestapo, was just ridiculously fucking stupid and for that, either for being so fucking stupid as to think he could hide it, or for being so fucking arrogant as to think he could do what dozens of better tax cheats in politics could do and get away with it, he really does need throwing in The Thames. In my case John Majors Rottweilers came after me for claiming Bed and Breakfast accommodation in Sutton whilst freelancing at London Underground Ltd just before Blair’s successful election campaign. They hit me for all the accommodation expenses plus interest but no penalty. Their letter stated I had ‘misinterpreted’ the relevant sections of ICTA 1988. I took them to the tribunal and tried to make a mockery of their statement that accommodation costs cannot possibly be a business expense because I could not possibly invoice the client while asleep and I LOST. It made quite a stir on the editorial pages of John Samsons Computer Contractor at the time. Amazingly, the ability to screw small to medium enterprise for doing no more than what large enterprise did for its employees with subsistence expenditure persisted until none other than Gordon Brown put a stop to it in 2001 with his TOTAL revamp of expense allowances permissible for at site working for a period not exceeding two years I learned a lot. Particularly how to screw the Revenue over properly. When they challenged my substitution clause as invalid under IR35 I invited their tax inspector to come to the naval base and demand the right to be my substitute. The test came to Faslane, did exactly what he said would be needed to allow a substitution clause … and was marched away by armed Special Boat Squadron members. Tbe MOD take access to the nuclear sub bases very seriously I got a stiff warning from the Navy not to do that again and three weeks later the tax office admitted the Navy had the absolute right to vet any person sent to fulfil my subcontract and could demand several months to carry that out. I ceased operating as a ltdco about fourteen years later. For some reason every single piece of paperwork I sent them after that Faslane debacle was accepted by them without question. I wish I’d known, I’d have been much more creative about them.
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Post by see2 on Jan 30, 2023 8:45:27 GMT
So Sunak now sacks the only member of the Government who believes in lower taxation.. The Conservatives will be renaming themselves 'New Labour' at this rate - they already have all the same policies so may as well go the whole hog.. Renaming themselves the open minded politically objective party. That would be good.
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Post by Orac on Jan 30, 2023 10:06:20 GMT
Taxation is one of those areas that a particular personality type has has its claws in for a very long time.
One would have thought the people would have mounted a defence against its machinations many years ago. Something along the lines of this -
It is the government's responsibility to tell a citizen how much tax he owes them. After any challenges / appeals and the amount being paid in full, the matter is closed for eternity.
This would also force the tax system to change and simplify.
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Post by oracle75 on Jan 30, 2023 10:16:07 GMT
Taxation is one of those areas that a particular personality type has has its claws in for a very long time. One would have thought the people would have mounted a defence against its machinations many years ago. Something along the lines of this - It is the government's responsibility to tell a citizen how much tax he owes them. After any challenges / appeals and the amount being paid in full, the matter is closed for eternity.This would also force the tax system to change and simplify. Complicating the tax system is one of the silent methods used to inflate the public purse. My question is, where has it all gone with no explanation to that very public.
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Post by Orac on Jan 30, 2023 10:25:45 GMT
Taxation is one of those areas that a particular personality type has has its claws in for a very long time. One would have thought the people would have mounted a defence against its machinations many years ago. Something along the lines of this - It is the government's responsibility to tell a citizen how much tax he owes them. After any challenges / appeals and the amount being paid in full, the matter is closed for eternity.This would also force the tax system to change and simplify. Complicating the tax system is one of the silent methods used to inflate the public purse. My question is, where has it all gone with no explanation to that very public. Complication also allows for selective enforcement, with all the avenues for corruption that entails. It also means everyone has to have a specialist 'expert' between themselves and the government
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Post by johnofgwent on Jan 30, 2023 11:11:46 GMT
Taxation is one of those areas that a particular personality type has has its claws in for a very long time. One would have thought the people would have mounted a defence against its machinations many years ago. Something along the lines of this - It is the government's responsibility to tell a citizen how much tax he owes them. After any challenges / appeals and the amount being paid in full, the matter is closed for eternity.This would also force the tax system to change and simplify. The FSB has tried that for over two decades to my certain knowledge The Inland Revenue, who are a law unto themselves, refuse to do it The last attempt of significance by the FSB was an attempt to force the legal recognition of the state of self employment as there is for the status of employee, and limited company. The Inland Revenue, who much prefer the current scenario where they can use fear uncertainty and doubt to terrorise the honest man, refuse point blank. Strangely, politicians who promise reform in opposition (as Cameron promised to reform IR35) have a meeting with a civil servant on gaining office and forget all about their promises.
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Post by johnofgwent on Jan 30, 2023 11:13:07 GMT
So Sunak now sacks the only member of the Government who believes in lower taxation.. The Conservatives will be renaming themselves 'New Labour' at this rate - they already have all the same policies so may as well go the whole hog.. Well obviously he believes in it for himself. Does he really believe in it for the ordinary worker though ??
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Post by Handyman on Jan 30, 2023 12:07:35 GMT
Did you know, there's a thing in law called, "Innocent until proven guilty" But have you noticed in British and American politics, it's mainly the Left that wish to flaunt this law, to break it. Whoever is accused of what, it doesn't matter if a department, employer, prime minister etc.. wants to investigate before making a decision, social justice wants that person fined, sacked, fined again, stripped of peerages etc.. within 5 seconds of an accusation. And there's Starmer, telling the PM to ignore presumption of innocence whilst the PM insisted an investigation. So it doesn't matter what party the accused is in, it's pretty bad when some people disregard presumption of innocence. The media and TV bosses are good at ignoring it too. Exactly I agree 100% , even with all the media coverage some still cannot see the wood for the trees, they assume that Zahawi did his own accounting and submitted his own tax returns he is not an accountant or an expert on taxation matters, even HMRC stated he was issued with a Penalty Charge, and did consider that he had not knowingly intentional basically fiddled his taxes going back a number of years
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Post by Equivocal on Jan 30, 2023 12:34:22 GMT
Did you know, there's a thing in law called, "Innocent until proven guilty" But have you noticed in British and American politics, it's mainly the Left that wish to flaunt this law, to break it. Whoever is accused of what, it doesn't matter if a department, employer, prime minister etc.. wants to investigate before making a decision, social justice wants that person fined, sacked, fined again, stripped of peerages etc.. within 5 seconds of an accusation. And there's Starmer, telling the PM to ignore presumption of innocence whilst the PM insisted an investigation. So it doesn't matter what party the accused is in, it's pretty bad when some people disregard presumption of innocence. The media and TV bosses are good at ignoring it too. Exactly I agree 100% , even with all the media coverage some still cannot see the wood for the trees, they assume that Zahawi did his own accounting and submitted his own tax returns he is not an accountant or an expert on taxation matters, even HMRC stated he was issued with a Penalty Charge, and did consider that he had not knowingly intentional basically fiddled his taxes going back a number of years Even government ministers are allowed to be in dispute with HMRC; sometimes they will be in the right, sometimes not.
The issue with Zahawi is that he did not disclose there was an issue with HMRC. He also claims he was unaware his tax affairs were being investigated until July last year. I, like Laurie Magnus, find this very hard to believe. It's not really an issue of whether or not he 'fiddled' his taxes.
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Post by Orac on Jan 30, 2023 12:37:02 GMT
The FSB has tried that for over two decades to my certain knowledge The Inland Revenue, who are a law unto themselves, refuse to do it The last attempt of significance by the FSB was an attempt to force the legal recognition of the state of self employment as there is for the status of employee, and limited company. The Inland Revenue, who much prefer the current scenario where they can use fear uncertainty and doubt to terrorise the honest man, refuse point blank. Strangely, politicians who promise reform in opposition (as Cameron promised to reform IR35) have a meeting with a civil servant on gaining office and forget all about their promises. It would remove most of their power. They would become mere functionaries of the state - ie clerical assistants and bailiffs. This is their proper role btw. No doubt Cameron was presented with a faint hint that nobody at all is immune from a 'surprise tax audit'. I think the only person in a position to challenge such unrestrained power is the King
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Post by johnofgwent on Jan 30, 2023 13:07:58 GMT
Did you know, there's a thing in law called, "Innocent until proven guilty" But have you noticed in British and American politics, it's mainly the Left that wish to flaunt this law, to break it. Whoever is accused of what, it doesn't matter if a department, employer, prime minister etc.. wants to investigate before making a decision, social justice wants that person fined, sacked, fined again, stripped of peerages etc.. within 5 seconds of an accusation. And there's Starmer, telling the PM to ignore presumption of innocence whilst the PM insisted an investigation. So it doesn't matter what party the accused is in, it's pretty bad when some people disregard presumption of innocence. The media and TV bosses are good at ignoring it too. NOT in tax ‘law’ The principle was established well over a century ago that it is for the tax PAYER to prove to the tribunal that the ‘assessment’ made by the inland revenue is incorrect. It was also established at the same time that when an ‘advisor’ makes your return or suggests a course of action, it is you, not they, who pay the penalty if you fail to persuade tbe tax tribunal that HMRC’s interpretation of ICTA 1988 is wrong as applied to your case. So the fact is in all tax matters you the taxpayer are deemed by the lawful tribunal held to investigate your complaint that you are in fact guilty as charged until you produce, and argue, evidence to the contrary. Amongst my various letters upstairs I have one from North West 5 Trusts and Settlements. It complained that I had accepted monies from my daughter still a child and paid her in dividends for work she did backing up my computer systems while I was away from home (I did say the bastards attack on my accommodation expenses made me both radicalised and much more creative and this was one such example) After several YEARS of this the Inland Revenue complained. They said, and I quote, that ‘if I agree to cancel the B shares in my daughters ownership and make no further payments in dividends against them, AND sign an agreement that no shares will ever again be issued to a person under 18, they will ignore the (£30,000) I have handed out but if I do not agree then I would be dragged before a tribunal and the maximum penalty sought. This highlights the attitude these scum take.
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Post by Steve on Jan 30, 2023 13:21:00 GMT
Taxation is one of those areas that a particular personality type has has its claws in for a very long time. One would have thought the people would have mounted a defence against its machinations many years ago. Something along the lines of this - It is the government's responsibility to tell a citizen how much tax he owes them. After any challenges / appeals and the amount being paid in full, the matter is closed for eternity.This would also force the tax system to change and simplify. And how would the Revenue know if Zahawists didn't tell them how much taxable income they had?
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Post by Orac on Jan 30, 2023 14:47:31 GMT
They would have to simplify the tax system so they could make an evaluation, make the taxes indirect or use the selling of licences.
It's a bit absurd that people who work for a living have to deal with obtuse nonsense that leaves them with a liability
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