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Post by Bentley on Jan 30, 2023 14:03:58 GMT
For the Scot indies every road leads to independence. If it wasn’t Brexit then it would be something else. Does anyone believe that if the UK was still in the EU then the usual suspects would be even a tiny bit quieter ? I do not disagree with you on this. What I am saying, though, is that Brexit has given substance and justification to the Scots' otherwise idealistic and unconvincing argument for leaving the United Kingdom. On the surface yes but the real Scot Indy narrative is that they have potential resources that they don’t want to share with England. The EU bit is the whine that more Scots voted to remain than leave so it’s another case of poor old oppressed Scotland boo hoo. They claim that the EU will give them lots of money to develop carbon free energy and they can sell that energy to EU countries. They also claim that they can walk away from the UK without debt ( which has nothing to do with the EU). The EU point is just one of many and not as foremost as you might think imo. The Scot Indy narrative is that they can walk away with the divorce with the house , car , business,CD collection and maintenance for the kids . The EU is a sub narrative of wishful thinking and whining .
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2023 14:47:51 GMT
I do not disagree with you on this. What I am saying, though, is that Brexit has given substance and justification to the Scots' otherwise idealistic and unconvincing argument for leaving the United Kingdom. On the surface yes but the real Scot Indy narrative is that they have potential resources that they don’t want to share with England. The EU bit is the whine that more Scots voted to remain than leave so it’s another case of poor old oppressed Scotland boo hoo. They claim that the EU will give them lots of money to develop carbon free energy and they can sell that energy to EU countries. They also claim that they can walk away from the UK without debt ( which has nothing to do with the EU). The EU point is just one of many and not as foremost as you might think imo. The Scot Indy narrative is that they can walk away with the divorce with the house , car , business,CD collection and maintenance for the kids . The EU is a sub narrative of wishful thinking and whining . I disagree that it is only superficial. On the contrary, that Brexit has given substance and justification to the their whine, their wishful thinking, their boo-hoo, their divorce narrative (their version of UK Leavers' delusion) is fundamental and goes deeper than what we see casually. Their call for independence -- whatever you want to call it; how ever you want to diminish it -- is now justified and vindicated because of Brexit. Brexit has drawn a dividing line between Scotland and the rest of the UK. The Scots now have a concrete argument: they voted to remain in the EU and they can only achieve that by being independent from the UK.
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Post by Bentley on Jan 30, 2023 15:00:14 GMT
On the surface yes but the real Scot Indy narrative is that they have potential resources that they don’t want to share with England. The EU bit is the whine that more Scots voted to remain than leave so it’s another case of poor old oppressed Scotland boo hoo. They claim that the EU will give them lots of money to develop carbon free energy and they can sell that energy to EU countries. They also claim that they can walk away from the UK without debt ( which has nothing to do with the EU). The EU point is just one of many and not as foremost as you might think imo. The Scot Indy narrative is that they can walk away with the divorce with the house , car , business,CD collection and maintenance for the kids . The EU is a sub narrative of wishful thinking and whining . I disagree that it is only superficial. On the contrary, that Brexit has given substance and justification to the their whine, their wishful thinking, their boo-hoo, their divorce narrative (their version of UK Leavers' delusion) is fundamental and goes deeper than what we see casually. Their call for independence -- whatever you want to call it; how ever you want to diminish it -- is now justified and vindicated because of Brexit. Brexit has drawn a dividing line between Scotland and the rest of the UK. The Scots now have a concrete argument: they voted to remain in the EU and they can only achieve that by being independent from the UK. The call for independence would be just as loud and just as often if the UK were still in the EU. The EU is a side issue and a focal point to whine about . Scotland took part in a pan UK referendum. Everyone knew this including the Scots. The Scot Indy narrative is what I said it is ..they dont want to share the wealth they claim to have with England . The EU whine is just reframing the real narrative into a package that the SNP think they can sell to voters. It’s not a concrete argument at all.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2023 15:11:37 GMT
I disagree that it is only superficial. On the contrary, that Brexit has given substance and justification to the their whine, their wishful thinking, their boo-hoo, their divorce narrative (their version of UK Leavers' delusion) is fundamental and goes deeper than what we see casually. Their call for independence -- whatever you want to call it; how ever you want to diminish it -- is now justified and vindicated because of Brexit. Brexit has drawn a dividing line between Scotland and the rest of the UK. The Scots now have a concrete argument: they voted to remain in the EU and they can only achieve that by being independent from the UK. The call for independence would be just as loud and just as often if the UK were still in the EU. The EU is a side issue and a focal point to whine about . Scotland took part in a pan UK referendum. Everyone knew this including the Scots. The Scot Indy narrative is what I said it is ..they dont want to share the wealth they claim to have with England . The EU whine is just reframing the real narrative into a package that the SNP think they can sell to voters. It’s not a concrete argument at all. You are missing the point. Yes, it might be just a whine, a whinge, a lament, a moan; it might be airy-fairy, emotional, sentimental; might not make sense; might be far fetched, might not have foundation; might be regionalism, nationalism, tribalistism. Whatever. The point is, Brexit has given the Scots a substantial, justifiable argument. Brexit has given the Scottish independent movement a leg to stand on. The erstwhile whine, lament, moan, complaint is now justified.
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Post by Bentley on Jan 30, 2023 15:28:58 GMT
The call for independence would be just as loud and just as often if the UK were still in the EU. The EU is a side issue and a focal point to whine about . Scotland took part in a pan UK referendum. Everyone knew this including the Scots. The Scot Indy narrative is what I said it is ..they dont want to share the wealth they claim to have with England . The EU whine is just reframing the real narrative into a package that the SNP think they can sell to voters. It’s not a concrete argument at all. You are missing the point. Yes, it might be just a whine, a whinge, a lament, a moan; it might be airy-fairy, emotional, sentimental; might not make sense; might be far fetched, might not have foundation; might be regionalism, nationalism, tribalistism. Whatever. The point is, Brexit has given the Scots a substantial, justifiable argument. Brexit has given the Scottish independent movement a leg to stand on. The erstwhile whine, lament, moan, complaint is now justified. Yes it’s given a sub narrative the position of main narrative . The question of the problems involved in both leaving they union and joining the EU are brushed aside . The sub narrative is that the sassenachs are oppressing the Scots and stymieing their blue sky future . Much the same as the ex remainers claim that Johnson and other brexiters accused the EU. The point is that the true Scot Indy narrative just isn’t that ..it’s the narrative that I posted. Keeping England from the pot of gold that the SNP claims is there for the taking THATS the point .
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Post by bancroft on Jan 30, 2023 15:58:35 GMT
Seems to be the knock-on effect from the Blair-Brown govt pushing devolution remember the Scots referendum was 2014 before the Brexit referendum. Seems to be, yes. However, Brexit has given Scots something almost tangible to hold on to. Whereas in 2014, it was just sheer sentiment; now there's substance and direction to it. They can now argue that they wanted and voted to stay in the EU but its union with England and Wales is preventing it so they must leave and must be allowed to leave that union. I respect your desire to come out of the UK though in joining another union will throw up some things you don't like that may not be visible from the outset.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2023 16:15:16 GMT
You are missing the point. Yes, it might be just a whine, a whinge, a lament, a moan; it might be airy-fairy, emotional, sentimental; might not make sense; might be far fetched, might not have foundation; might be regionalism, nationalism, tribalistism. Whatever. The point is, Brexit has given the Scots a substantial, justifiable argument. Brexit has given the Scottish independent movement a leg to stand on. The erstwhile whine, lament, moan, complaint is now justified. Yes it’s given a sub narrative the position of main narrative . The question of the problems involved in both leaving they union and joining the EU are brushed aside . The sub narrative is that the sassenachs are oppressing the Scots and stymieing their blue sky future . Much the same as the ex remainers claim that Johnson and other brexiters accused the EU. The point is that the true Scot Indy narrative just isn’t that ..it’s the narrative that I posted. Keeping England from the pot of gold that the SNP claims is there for the taking THATS the point . That's the point you are trying to make. Unfortunately, it is very much irrelevant to the point that Brexit has given substance to the Scot Indy narrative. Whatever your chosen narrative may be is irrelevant because every narrative is subsumed and substantiated by the fact that Scotland voted to remain in the EU and the only way for Scotland to achieve that is to gain independence from the rest of the UK. The narratives you have presented are no longer flimsy or doubtful or debatable. They now have a very compelling argument in that: "The will of the people of Scotland is to remain in the European Union. In order to fulfill that will of the people, Scotland will have to be or must be independent from the United Kingdom." How can you go against the will of the people of Scotland when you used the will of the people of England and Wales to force the Scots to leave the European Union? That is now the argument with which you have to contend. And that is what I mean by arguing that Brexit has given Scottish arguments a leg to stand on.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2023 16:18:23 GMT
Seems to be, yes. However, Brexit has given Scots something almost tangible to hold on to. Whereas in 2014, it was just sheer sentiment; now there's substance and direction to it. They can now argue that they wanted and voted to stay in the EU but its union with England and Wales is preventing it so they must leave and must be allowed to leave that union. I respect your desire to come out of the UK though in joining another union will throw up some things you don't like that may not be visible from the outset. That same, exact way of thinking should have been taken by leave voters, IMO.
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Post by Bentley on Jan 30, 2023 16:18:37 GMT
Yes it’s given a sub narrative the position of main narrative . The question of the problems involved in both leaving they union and joining the EU are brushed aside . The sub narrative is that the sassenachs are oppressing the Scots and stymieing their blue sky future . Much the same as the ex remainers claim that Johnson and other brexiters accused the EU. The point is that the true Scot Indy narrative just isn’t that ..it’s the narrative that I posted. Keeping England from the pot of gold that the SNP claims is there for the taking THATS the point . That's the point you are trying to make. Unfortunately, it is very much irrelevant to the point that Brexit has given substance to the Scot Indy narrative. Whatever your chosen narrative may be is irrelevant because every narrative is subsumed and substantiated by the fact that Scotland voted to remain in the EU and the only way for Scotland to achieve that is to gain independence from the rest of the UK. The narratives you have presented are no longer flimsy or doubtful or debatable. They now have a very compelling argument in that: "The will of the people of Scotland is to remain in the European Union. In order to fulfill that will of the people, Scotland will have to be or must be independent from the United Kingdom." How can you go against the will of the people of Scotland when you used the will of the people of England and Wales to force the Scots to leave the European Union? That is now the argument with which you have to contend. It hadn’t given it substance . It’s given a platform for a sub narrative to be used as the main narrative . The Brexit vote didn’t go against the will of the Scottish people . It was a UK wide vote . How many times must the remainers need to be told this ?
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Post by Bentley on Jan 30, 2023 16:20:52 GMT
I respect your desire to come out of the UK though in joining another union will throw up some things you don't like that may not be visible from the outset. That same, exact way of thinking should have been taken by leave voters, IMO. Indeed. The Scot Indy narrative is no better or honest than what the remainers claim the leave narrative was.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2023 16:30:20 GMT
That's the point you are trying to make. Unfortunately, it is very much irrelevant to the point that Brexit has given substance to the Scot Indy narrative. Whatever your chosen narrative may be is irrelevant because every narrative is subsumed and substantiated by the fact that Scotland voted to remain in the EU and the only way for Scotland to achieve that is to gain independence from the rest of the UK. The narratives you have presented are no longer flimsy or doubtful or debatable. They now have a very compelling argument in that: "The will of the people of Scotland is to remain in the European Union. In order to fulfill that will of the people, Scotland will have to be or must be independent from the United Kingdom." How can you go against the will of the people of Scotland when you used the will of the people of England and Wales to force the Scots to leave the European Union? That is now the argument with which you have to contend. It hadn’t given it substance . It’s given a platform for a sub narrative to be used as the main narrative . The Brexit vote didn’t go against the will of the Scottish people . It was a UK wide vote . How many times must the remainers need to be told this ? Whatever it is -- platform or substance -- Brexit has bolstered Scotland's argument for independence. Whether or not it was a UK-wide vote is irrelevant to Scotland. They voted to remain in the EU but can't do so because England and Wales voted to leave; therefore? They must leave the United Kingdom. Forget economics, forget history; wishing to be in the EU and being prevent from doing so is the only argument they are presenting at the moment. I'm sorry, but Scotland is still a nation that has supposedly equal say in the union. And if the rest of the union can't respect the will of the Scottish people then you have to let them leave the union.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2023 16:34:55 GMT
That same, exact way of thinking should have been taken by leave voters, IMO. Indeed. The Scot Indy narrative is no better or honest than what the remainers claim the leave narrative was. This is the analogy I was trying to make: Bancroft : Scotland's desire to come out of the UK will throw up some things you don't like that may not be visible from the outset. The Gnome: The UK's desire to come out of the EU will throw up some things you don't like and can't manage that may not be visible from the outset. You will note that the above has absolutely nothing to do with Scot Indy narrative. Or any narrative.
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Post by Bentley on Jan 30, 2023 17:03:00 GMT
It hadn’t given it substance . It’s given a platform for a sub narrative to be used as the main narrative . The Brexit vote didn’t go against the will of the Scottish people . It was a UK wide vote . How many times must the remainers need to be told this ? Whatever it is -- platform or substance -- Brexit has bolstered Scotland's argument for independence. Whether or not it was a UK-wide vote is irrelevant to Scotland. They voted to remain in the EU but can't do so because England and Wales voted to leave; therefore? They must leave the United Kingdom. Forget economics, forget history; wishing to be in the EU and being prevent from doing so is the only argument they are presenting at the moment. I'm sorry, but Scotland is still a nation that has supposedly equal say in the union. And if the rest of the union can't respect the will of the Scottish people then you have to let them leave the union. It’s bolstered nothing . It has merely provided another platform for claiming to be oppressed. They voted in a UK referendum . You forget whatever you want but don’t insist others forget that the EU narrative is a side show to the main narrative of keeping their perceived future wealth from the English . I understand that some disgruntled remainers might wish otherwise or pretend otherwise to bolster their own bitterness at Brexit but the reality is that Brexit is being used by the SNP to make the false claim of being oppressed.
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Post by Bentley on Jan 30, 2023 17:07:58 GMT
Indeed. The Scot Indy narrative is no better or honest than what the remainers claim the leave narrative was. This is the analogy I was trying to make: Bancroft : Scotland's desire to come out of the UK will throw up some things you don't like that may not be visible from the outset. The Gnome: The UK's desire to come out of the EU will throw up some things you don't like and can't manage that may not be visible from the outset. You will note that the above has absolutely nothing to do with Scot Indy narrative. Or any narrative. What you seem to be doing is failing to emphasise the reality that the Indy promise of blue skies after leaving the union is just as tenuous as the blue skies after Brexit promise.
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Post by buccaneer on Jan 30, 2023 20:49:28 GMT
Correlation isn't causation. Sorry, you've provided no evidence that Brexit has had a negative impact on the economy. Fine, but you don't need Statistics 101 to see that Brexit is the reason why the UK has not been able to return to pre-pandemic level. It's just like s**t -- you don't need to taste it to know that it's s**t. I have given you facts that are impossible to refute. Facts that would make anyone with a bit of nous and realism see that it is Brexit that has damaged and continues to damage our economy. But you choose to reject and dismiss them outright so now the ball is in your court. It's your turn to prove me wrong and since you're so big on evidence -- where is you evidence that Brexit has NOT had a negative impact on the economy? The UK was one of the slowest G7 nations coming out of the financial crisis as well, it was a fully paid up member of the EU at the time. However, now that you don't have the evidence to provide your claim you want me to provide you evidence on why Brexit isn't to blame for the UK's economic recovery after a global pandemic. Lol. Yet, you still have the audacity to stand behind your baseless claim because you digest remain led headlines as gospel and claim you don't need statistics to see they reason why the UK hasn't returned to pre-pandemic levels. Like I said to you previously, your thinking is rudimentary and ideological.
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