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Post by happyjack on Jan 27, 2023 14:12:48 GMT
Hi happyjack and morayloon What do you think of the methodology in the OP? Hi researcch0it You asked, in your OP, what would be a fair way to settle it. i responded in the linked post below outlining what I believe is the only fair way to settle it. As that is not the methodology that you suggested then I obviously don’t think that your suggestion is a fair way to settle it. ukpoliticsdebate.boards.net/post/48798Of course, I recognise that doing what I suggest is never going to happen. Therefore I feel that we are doomed to be floating around in limbo on this one unless and until the Indy movement stops playing around with “pie in the sky” ideas such as de facto mechanisms and starts trying to win over a sufficient number of persuadable No voters to the Yes side so that the critical mass in favour of independence cannot be resisted. |
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Post by research0it on Jan 27, 2023 14:12:49 GMT
It is of no consequence that over one million Scots voted leave. The simple fact is that Remain won with 62% of the vote. And it is the winning that counts! "Remain won" is a clear case of a poster claiming blackiswhite. Hi blackiswhite Another one. Can you please stick to the point? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2023 14:17:39 GMT
"Remain won" is a clear case of a poster claiming blackiswhite. Hi blackiswhite Another one. Can you please stick to the point? I was replying to a post with a perfectly valid observation. Who made you a moderator? |
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Post by research0it on Jan 27, 2023 14:18:02 GMT
Hi happyjack and morayloon What do you think of the methodology in the OP? Hi researcch0it You asked, in your OP, what would be a fair way to settle it. i responded in the linked post below outlining what I believe is the only fair way to settle it. As that is not the methodology that you suggested then I obviously don’t think that your suggestion is a fair way to settle it. ukpoliticsdebate.boards.net/post/48798Of course, I recognise that doing what I suggest is never going to happen. Therefore I feel that we are doomed to be floating around in limbo on this one unless and until the Indy movement stops playing around with “pie in the sky” ideas such as de facto mechanisms and starts trying to win over a sufficient number of persuadable No voters to the Yes side so that the critical mass in favour of independence cannot be resisted. Hi happyjack I don't think what you suggest would completely contradict mine. If hearts and mind are won then there will be that kind of outcome. What I allow for is a mechanism to pull back from the brink. As an aside, however, I don't think the uk is doing enough to win over those on the fence or soft yes voters. Where's the long term plan to move investment away from London and develop the underdeveloped regions of the uk? |
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Post by happyjack on Jan 27, 2023 17:23:05 GMT
There’s no doubt that the UK govt. is not doing enough to win anyone over. To be fair, though, I don’t think that it is even trying, or has felt the need to even try since the 2014 referendum victory. To them, (although they can’t say so publicly) the question of independence has been asked and answered and doesn’t warrant further consideration. Also, crucially, It knows that the power lies in their hands so they just need to keep paying lip service to the issue when the question arises from time to time, and to keep swattting away those pesky Indy types they occasionally find buzzing around their faces.
In fact, the UK govt. could hardly have done any more to help the independence movement over the past 6 or 7 years with all of the shenanigans at Westminster, culminating in Johnson and Truss, and the UKIP-lite Tory parliamentary party currently ensconced on the government benches. If the dial didn’t move massively and permanently in favour of independence against that back-drop then when will it ever?
Of course, the Indy movement, with its obsession and focus on securing another referendum, and on creating and exploiting petty grievance stirring opportunities (which doubtless kept the faithful happy but left most of the rest of us feeling unmoved or cold at best) failed spectacularly to take advantage of this ripest of opportunities, and now that window is narrowing and will soon be closed when a Labour govt. takes over power.
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Post by Ripley on Jan 27, 2023 22:11:29 GMT
This is, of course about the constitutional question. I think we need to get away from this mania for knife edge referendums So what would be a fair way of settling it? A fair way of settling it would be to have a deep and thorough national conversation about the matter, at the end of which we hold a referendum to determine the will of the Scottish people and then, whatever choice they make, we respect that choice. “Oh, wait a minute, surely we have just done all of that?”, I hear you say. Well, not quite, because although we had the conversation, and although we held the referendum, and although we established the will of the Scottish people, unfortunately far too many of us seemingly don’t respect the Scottish people enough to honour their decision. So isn’t it about time that they did? That’s the only fair way to settle it and that would get us away from this mania for referendums, knife-edge or otherwise. Simples! As John Maynard Keynes said, "When events change, I change my mind. What do you do? When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir? When my information changes, I alter my conclusions. What do you do, sir?" A lot has changed in nine years. |
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Post by happyjack on Jan 27, 2023 23:08:48 GMT
Well, not many people have changed their minds on either side in the past 9 years, and that’s despite the case for independence now being even less appealing that it was before Brexit. So much for the wisdom of JMK.
However, the point is that, other than the fact that Scottish people had confirmed their desire to remain within the UK, not very much had changed a day after the indyref, or a week after it, or, as far as I can remember, even a month after it, but there was zero sign of Indy supporters respecting the democratic decision of the Scottish people even then, and it was certainly clear, long before the Brexit result (which is the excuse that they hide behind for their treachery) that they were never going to respect it.
I still haven’t seen a definition of Scottish Democracy from Morayloon, but I will be amazed if it includes anything about respecting the democratically expressed wishes of the Scottish people. That would surely be such blatant hypocrisy.
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Post by Ripley on Jan 28, 2023 0:05:18 GMT
Well, not many people have changed their minds on either side in the past 9 years, and that’s despite the case for independence now being even less appealing that it was before Brexit. So much for the wisdom of JMK. However, the point is that, other than the fact that Scottish people had confirmed their desire to remain within the UK, not very much had changed a day after the indyref, or a week after it, or, as far as I can remember, even a month after it, but there was zero sign of Indy supporters respecting the democratic decision of the Scottish people even then, and it was certainly clear, long before the Brexit result (which is the excuse that they hide behind for their treachery) that they were never going to respect it. I still haven’t seen a definition of Scottish Democracy from Morayloon, but I will be amazed if it includes anything about respecting the democratically expressed wishes of the Scottish people. That would surely be such blatant hypocrisy. How can you possibly know that not many have changed their minds in the past 9 years without establishing that fact with a referendum? Polls don't always translate into actual votes. |
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Post by happyjack on Jan 28, 2023 0:35:22 GMT
Then why do you take such an interest in polls ?
You are missing the key point here, which is that based upon what we saw from much of the Indy movement in the aftermath of the indyref, knowing what people think through the results of a referendum doesn’t matter to them (unless, presumably, they get the result that they want).
BTW - If you are right in what you say above (and, of course, you are) then we will never know the fact because there is not going to be a referendum (ScotGov’s prospective de facto stunt doesn’t count as a referendum btw).
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Post by jonksy on Jan 28, 2023 0:58:17 GMT
Hi blackiswhite Another one. Can you please stick to the point? I was replying to a post with a perfectly valid observation. Who made you a moderator?Just typical of all these snp arse lickers they think they are above their station in life... |
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Post by morayloon on Jan 28, 2023 2:41:15 GMT
Well, not many people have changed their minds on either side in the past 9 years, and that’s despite the case for independence now being even less appealing that it was before Brexit. So much for the wisdom of JMK. However, the point is that, other than the fact that Scottish people had confirmed their desire to remain within the UK, not very much had changed a day after the indyref, or a week after it, or, as far as I can remember, even a month after it, but there was zero sign of Indy supporters respecting the democratic decision of the Scottish people even then, and it was certainly clear, long before the Brexit result (which is the excuse that they hide behind for their treachery) that they were never going to respect it. I still haven’t seen a definition of Scottish Democracy from Morayloon, but I will be amazed if it includes anything about respecting the democratically expressed wishes of the Scottish people. That would surely be such blatant hypocrisy. And you won't. If you are unable to decipher what "Scottish Democracy" is, that is your problem. The concept is self-explanatory. People are not really engaged with the arguments. The only way that the %age support will rise is through a campaign leading up to a Referendum or this so called de facto Referendum. YES put on 20-25% over the last campaign. We don't need anything like that to see us over the winning line this time. The real story in the polls is why has support not faded away? The people who voted YES in 2014 are still there. Some might have switched sides but , if that did happen, there has been more of a drift from No to Yes considering the polls are shwing the matter is neck & neck As for Brexit, "Scotland's Future" stated words to the effect that we will not be dragged out of the EU against our will. At the time (2013) Farage & UKIP were on the SNPs radar. When UKIP topped the 2014 EU elections, the game looked like starting. Cameron was making utterances about a referendum. The White Paper was right in its assumptions. Treachery is a strong word, one which, again marks you out as a Unionist stooge. |
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Post by morayloon on Jan 28, 2023 2:51:31 GMT
BTW - If you are right in what you say above (and, of course, you are) then we will never know the fact because there is not going to be a referendum (ScotGov’s prospective de facto stunt doesn’t count as a referendum btw). And you know there will never be another Referendum, how? If the de facto thing comes about, a 50%+ vote will be taken as an opener for Independence negotiations. I do not expect the Brit Nats will play ball, after all the example of Ireland is there for all to see. They ignored Irish Democracy, sent in the troops and created the Black & Tans who wreaked havoc throughout the island(perhaps not so much in the NE). In the end the Brits had to bend to the will of the Irish people. |
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Post by jaydee on Jan 28, 2023 8:51:06 GMT
It is of no consequence that over one million Scots voted leave. The simple fact is that Remain won with 62% of the vote. And it is the winning that counts! "Remain won" is a clear case of a poster claiming blackiswhite. No. Bankrupt England voted to make itself poorer. The Scots voted to remain. So what did bankrupt England win. |
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Post by jaydee on Jan 28, 2023 8:59:50 GMT
Just typical of all these snp arse lickers they think they are above their station in life... Oh dear. Big Krankie Jonsky. The sooper dooper Englishmen with the white English pedigree woof woof. With his. Do not do as I do. Do asI tell you. Now I wonder why the expression my arse springs to mind . So let me ask you this above my station in life. Could you give me one economic reason, one will do. I would gain economically subsidising the likes of you. As the constituency of Richmond, one of the richest in England, amongst arse licking Tory's gets £19 million of the so called Tory slush fund called levelling up by arse licking. While poorer parts of bankrupt England and Scotland get SFA. |
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Post by Vinny on Jan 28, 2023 10:19:19 GMT
In 2014 the EU membership referendum was official government policy, UKIP had overtaken the Lib Dems on votes and were the third biggest party in British politics, it was inevitable that a membership referendum was on the cards with a strong chance of the UK leaving.
You went into the separatism referendum of 2014 knowing this.
Had you left, you'd have left the EU anyway and wouldn't have qualified for membership due to the deficit rules of the EU.
Scotland was never a member of the EU, the UK was. You were faced with a the UK might leave the EU, but Scotland definitely would if you leave the UK situation.
The EU is not why Scotland voted to stay in the UK.
Assumptions like yours would lose you another referendum Morayloon.
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