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Post by morayloon on Jan 26, 2023 11:46:19 GMT
This is, of course about the constitutional question. I think we need to get away from this mania for knife edge referendums So what would be a fair way of settling it? A fair way of settling it would be to have a deep and thorough national conversation about the matter, at the end of which we hold a referendum to determine the will of the Scottish people and then, whatever choice they make, we respect that choice. “Oh, wait a minute, surely we have just done all of that?”, I hear you say. Well, not quite, because although we had the conversation, and although we held the referendum, and although we established the will of the Scottish people, unfortunately far too many of us seemingly don’t respect the Scottish people enough to honour their decision. So isn’t it about time that they did? That’s the only fair way to settle it and that would get us away from this mania for referendums, knife-edge or otherwise. Simples! One word: Brexit. Also, there is no reason why people should not continue fighting for the cause. Did Labour stop campaigning because they lost four elections in succession? Another reason for continuing the fight is the possibility that electoral fraud was carried out. A wee anecdote: I was present at the close of polling, as an SNP polling Agent, in one of the rural Moray polling stations. They did not seal the ballot boxes. I queried it and was told that there was no requirement to do this. I thought that was strange but accepted what was said by the staff. There were no police officers present which I thought unusual. I checked the Electoral Commission's website and found that Ballot Boxes have to be sealed at elections. Whatever the agreement was between BT & YES, not sealing the boxes left it wide open for the 'dark forces' to stuff them with a few extra voting slips. Just saying www.electoralcommission.org.uk/sites/default/files/2019-11/UKPGE%20Polling%20Station%20Handbook%20final%20English%20web.pdf (p19) |
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Post by Vinny on Jan 26, 2023 12:50:59 GMT
Brexit is the expressed will of the electorate of the United Kingdom including Scots.
Get over it.
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Post by morayloon on Jan 26, 2023 15:41:27 GMT
Brexit is the expressed will of the electorate of the United Kingdom including Scots. Get over it. Scots voted 62% - 38% to Remain in the EU. Scotland was ignored. Scottish Democracy was trampled on. |
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Post by Vinny on Jan 26, 2023 16:15:20 GMT
Irrelevant, it was not an electoral college vote, postcodes weren't a factor, most British votes were leave votes and without the million plus Scots who voted leave it wouldn't have happened.
Get over it and stop blaming English people for your woes.
Besides, you're a leftie, there aren't any significant left wing aspects to the EU, it's all about the liberalisation of markets and capitalism and the creation of a federal superstate.
The EU is the antithesis of everything you say you stand for.
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Post by morayloon on Jan 26, 2023 16:32:22 GMT
Irrelevant, it was not an electoral college vote, postcodes weren't a factor, most British votes were leave votes and without the million plus Scots who voted leave it wouldn't have happened. Get over it and stop blaming English people for your woes. Besides, you're a leftie, there aren't any significant left wing aspects to the EU, it's all about the liberalisation of markets and capitalism and the creation of a federal superstate. The EU is the antithesis of everything you say you stand for. Scotland voted 62 - 38 to Remain and no amount of waffling will alter that fact. That 62% are very aware of what has happened since and, I would guess, the majority would be Nationalist sympathisers. We only need to bring a small %age over to get over the winning post |
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Post by Vinny on Jan 26, 2023 17:09:00 GMT
No it didn't, Scotland wasn't on the ballot paper, it was a UK vote and the UK voted 17.41 million to 16.1 million to leave. Postcode is irrelevant.
The UK voted for independence. Get over it.
We can do things now we couldn't before, and the Scottish Parliament has more sovereign powers. It's not my fault that your rubbish party isn't doing a good job.
The Scottish Parliament now has the means to nationalise postal services in Scotland and monopolise those services.
It has the means to control agricultural policy and set fishing quotas.
It has the means to undo NHS privatisation in Scotland and all it does is fucking moan about Brexit. Without Brexit you wouldn't have half the powers that the Scottish Parliament now enjoys.
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Post by morayloon on Jan 26, 2023 19:26:53 GMT
No it didn't, Scotland wasn't on the ballot paper, it was a UK vote and the UK voted 17.41 million to 16.1 million to leave. Postcode is irrelevant. The UK voted for independence. Get over it. We can do things now we couldn't before, and the Scottish Parliament has more sovereign powers. It's not my fault that your rubbish party isn't doing a good job. The Scottish Parliament now has the means to nationalise postal services in Scotland and monopolise those services. It has the means to control agricultural policy and set fishing quotas. It has the means to undo NHS privatisation in Scotland and all it does is fucking moan about Brexit. Without Brexit you wouldn't have half the powers that the Scottish Parliament now enjoys. It makes no difference. We know how Scotland voted. Dragging us out against our will will be a major part of any Indy campaign |
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Post by happyjack on Jan 26, 2023 19:50:54 GMT
A fair way of settling it would be to have a deep and thorough national conversation about the matter, at the end of which we hold a referendum to determine the will of the Scottish people and then, whatever choice they make, we respect that choice. “Oh, wait a minute, surely we have just done all of that?”, I hear you say. Well, not quite, because although we had the conversation, and although we held the referendum, and although we established the will of the Scottish people, unfortunately far too many of us seemingly don’t respect the Scottish people enough to honour their decision. So isn’t it about time that they did? That’s the only fair way to settle it and that would get us away from this mania for referendums, knife-edge or otherwise. Simples! One word: Brexit. Also, there is no reason why people should not continue fighting for the cause. Did Labour stop campaigning because they lost four elections in succession? Another reason for continuing the fight is the possibility that electoral fraud was carried out. A wee anecdote: I was present at the close of polling, as an SNP polling Agent, in one of the rural Moray polling stations. They did not seal the ballot boxes. I queried it and was told that there was no requirement to do this. I thought that was strange but accepted what was said by the staff. There were no police officers present which I thought unusual. I checked the Electoral Commission's website and found that Ballot Boxes have to be sealed at elections. Whatever the agreement was between BT & YES, not sealing the boxes left it wide open for the 'dark forces' to stuff them with a few extra voting slips. Just saying www.electoralcommission.org.uk/sites/default/files/2019-11/UKPGE%20Polling%20Station%20Handbook%20final%20English%20web.pdf (p19) Oh, Brexit Schmexit! That’s just the excuse that the Indy movement came up with to try to disguise the fact that they held the Scottish people’s decision in contempt and that they never had any intention of honouring it. If it hadn’t been Brexit it would have been something else equally as irrelevant and inappropriate. I agree that there is no reason why people should not keep fighting for the cause, but not for another referendum. Unlike the example you give of Labour and General Elections ( or were you thinking Holyrood elections - or maybe both?) where the next election is never that far away and campaigning never really stops, the granting of the 2014 referendum by UK govt. was a one-off concession on its part, with no obligation and no setting of a precedent for another to be held at any time thereafter (or ever, in point of fact). Add that to what we see playing out in front of us right now, with SNP ScotGov trying desperately to do something, anything, to force things on but just showing themselves to be impotent to do so, providing evidence, if we needed it, that all of the power over a referendum decision lies with UK govt. then, in my view, the obsession with Indyref 2 has been a major strategic gaff by Indy movement. There was probably never going to be another referendum anyway ( except a confirmatory one, perhaps) but I think that we can almost certainly rule one out now for as far as the eye can see. The Indy movement should have been more astute and concentrated on building up support for independence to a level that took it beyond the critical tipping point, thereby wrestling the power away from UK govt. and putting into the Scottish people’s hands instead. That’s what they need to be getting on with now, I reckon. i am not sure that my first reaction to a few unsealed ballot boxes in one polling station would be to suspect a nationwide conspiracy, rather than one local overseer just making a simple mistake. I think that you are allowing your imagination to run a bit too wild if you entertain serious thoughts of a systematic plot, involving polling station staff and ballot box collection personnel from across the nation, who were all, presumably, willing to participate in electoral fraud, a fraud that benefitted one outcome (either YES or NO btw) and disadvantaged the other, particularly as we can reasonably assume that these people will have been just as much split in their views on the issue of independence as the nation was in general. |
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Post by thomas on Jan 26, 2023 20:17:01 GMT
No it didn't, Scotland wasn't on the ballot paper, it was a UK vote and the UK voted 17.41 million to 16.1 million to leave. Postcode is irrelevant. well that argument fell flat on its face the day johnson agreed to the northern ireland protocol and allowed northern ireland to remain de facto in the EU.
Clearly the postcode was and is relevant vinny , and of course politically in the country that england took out more so...
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Post by thomas on Jan 26, 2023 20:20:14 GMT
So an Indy supporting publication believes that there is a majority in favour of Independence. With regards to the poll - the question highlighted in the National was not asked on the poll by findoutnow - so where did the National get those results from?, or did they just make them up? Find out now conducted the poll pacifico , under the tenets of the british polling coucil. If it was a mickey mouse poll as you infer , they would have been sanctioned by the BPC for doing so and bringin their name into disrepute.
Wether you , i or anyone else including newspapers paid for the poll , published it , or got them to ask the question is irrelevant.
Its a reputable poll by a reputable company that is a memeber of the bpc , and has followed all the checks and balances as proscribed by their membership .
Dont shoot the messenger mate cause you dont like the message.
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Post by Vinny on Jan 26, 2023 20:25:43 GMT
No it didn't, Scotland wasn't on the ballot paper, it was a UK vote and the UK voted 17.41 million to 16.1 million to leave. Postcode is irrelevant. well that argument fell flat on its face the day johnson agreed to the northern ireland protocol and allowed northern ireland to remain de facto in the EU.
Clearly the postcode was and is relevant vinny , and of course politically in the country that england took out more so...
What the hell are you talking about ? Northern Ireland is not in the EU. And the protocol puts a customs border across the UK cutting the UK into two. Read it: assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/840230/Revised_Protocol_to_the_Withdrawal_Agreement.pdf |
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Post by Vinny on Jan 26, 2023 20:28:07 GMT
No it didn't, Scotland wasn't on the ballot paper, it was a UK vote and the UK voted 17.41 million to 16.1 million to leave. Postcode is irrelevant. The UK voted for independence. Get over it. We can do things now we couldn't before, and the Scottish Parliament has more sovereign powers. It's not my fault that your rubbish party isn't doing a good job. The Scottish Parliament now has the means to nationalise postal services in Scotland and monopolise those services. It has the means to control agricultural policy and set fishing quotas. It has the means to undo NHS privatisation in Scotland and all it does is fucking moan about Brexit. Without Brexit you wouldn't have half the powers that the Scottish Parliament now enjoys. It makes no difference. We know how Scotland voted. Dragging us out against our will will be a major part of any Indy campaign Postcode wasn't part of the question. The UK voted to leave the EU. Scotland wasn't on the ballot. The UK voted for independence. Take advantage of it instead of sulking. You say you're a leftie, this is the opportunity for your rabid party to actually put into practice some left wing policies with the sovereignty we've devolved to you. |
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Post by thomas on Jan 26, 2023 20:29:42 GMT
Are you denying northern ireland retained things like eu citizenship and ecj jurisdiction ?
You can call it what you want vinny , if its no problem for brexiters , then im sure it wont be an issue if scotland gets the same , or the ruk when labour get in? When starmer sells his BRINO , i will remind you of your words...........and point out we arent in the eu merely the same as northern ireland.......  |
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Post by thomas on Jan 26, 2023 20:34:34 GMT
No it didn't, Scotland wasn't on the ballot paper, it was a UK vote and the UK voted 17.41 million to 16.1 million to leave. Postcode is irrelevant. The UK voted for independence. Get over it. We can do things now we couldn't before, and the Scottish Parliament has more sovereign powers. It's not my fault that your rubbish party isn't doing a good job. The Scottish Parliament now has the means to nationalise postal services in Scotland and monopolise those services. It has the means to control agricultural policy and set fishing quotas. It has the means to undo NHS privatisation in Scotland and all it does is fucking moan about Brexit. Without Brexit you wouldn't have half the powers that the Scottish Parliament now enjoys. It makes no difference. We know how Scotland voted. Dragging us out against our will will be a major part of any Indy campaign ands much more of course.
Tories bringing forward the age of retirement to 68 , coupled with the worst state pension in the OECD should help matters. The next one is going o be squeaky bum time for the brit nats , hence the squealing about no vote.
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Post by Vinny on Jan 26, 2023 21:29:25 GMT
Are you denying northern ireland retained things like eu citizenship and ecj jurisdiction ?
Nope, you said that Northern Ireland is in the EU, itself. It ISN'T.
Start paying attention instead of backpedalling.
You made a completely dishonest statement.
Btw, if Scotland had the same arrangement as Northern Ireland there would be a hard border with the rest of the UK.
It would require paying for.
Do you want our taxes to go up ? I don't.
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