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Post by thomas on Jan 24, 2023 8:37:51 GMT
you said no uk general election could be used for a single issue , i pointed out the 1918 general election was used as a single issue for sinn fein. I then merely repeated Thatchers infamous words to you that scotland could use a general election for a single issue on independence.
That was the normal democratic route , long standing prior to the 2014 indy ref.
If you want to divert onto asking "why dont you then" , then i will retort by asking why havent you taken northern ireland out the EU?
It works both ways....
But that didnt mean that anyone else had to treat it as such - I already made that point. i must have missed that point pacifico.
Wether england or anyone else agreed with treating sinn feins single issue platfrom in the 1918 GE is irrelevant. You claimed it couldnt happen , i have given you an example of when it did.
Theres lots of things englands parliament hasnt agreed to over the centuries with its colonies , but the colonies still went ahead and did them anyway. |
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Post by thomas on Jan 24, 2023 8:39:36 GMT
you said no uk general election could be used for a single issue , i pointed out the 1918 general election was used as a single issue for sinn fein. I then merely repeated Thatchers infamous words to you that scotland could use a general election for a single issue on independence.
That was the normal democratic route , long standing prior to the 2014 indy ref.
If you want to divert onto asking "why dont you then" , then i will retort by asking why havent you taken northern ireland out the EU?
It works both ways....
As for Thatcher - she has been dead for 10 years and out of power for over 30 - if you are going to try and use her pronouncements as a legal precedent I think you will struggle.  im not making any legal pronouncement. This is a debating forum , not an international court.
Im once more giving you an example of what was the considered norm prior to devolution.
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Post by Pacifico on Jan 24, 2023 12:31:55 GMT
But that didnt mean that anyone else had to treat it as such - I already made that point. i must have missed that point pacifico.
Wether england or anyone else agreed with treating sinn feins single issue platfrom in the 1918 GE is irrelevant. You claimed it couldnt happen , i have given you an example of when it did. You are missing the point - any individual Party can declare that the General election is about a single issue, but nobody else has to go along with that. If the SNP say that the result of the next election is a mandate for separation everyone else can say no it isnt - and as the electorate didnt vote on a single issue the SNP would have no mandate. |
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Post by research0it on Jan 24, 2023 12:53:26 GMT
i must have missed that point pacifico.
Wether england or anyone else agreed with treating sinn feins single issue platfrom in the 1918 GE is irrelevant. You claimed it couldnt happen , i have given you an example of when it did. You are missing the point - any individual Party can declare that the General election is about a single issue, but nobody else has to go along with that. If the SNP say that the result of the next election is a mandate for separation everyone else can say no it isnt - and as the electorate didnt vote on a single issue the SNP would have no mandate. Hi pacifico Of course technically you are correct. But let's take the next uk or Scottish election. Suppose the SNP and greens take 59 % of the votes cast. A uk election on that scale would likely mean all 59 Scottish seats for the SNP. In Scotland, it would mean about 63 % of the seats. Can the uk state really say "nothing to see here, move on. I'm sure that vote was not about independence. The voters meant something else" ? |
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Post by johnofgwent on Jan 24, 2023 13:09:29 GMT
Hi pacifico The election would indicate what the people want. And be an indication of long term desire and settled will. A referendum only tells you what they favoured at a specific point in time.
For example it seems, from a lot of polls that a majority in the UK think leaving the EU was a mistake. The problem with the way it was done is that short of another referendum - which I'm not sure people want - we appear stuck with the decision. An election only tells you what people favour on election day - its no different to a referendum. The problem with using an Election to settle a single question is that people vote for more than one thing on election day. The only way around this is to have no policies apart from stay or leave the Union - then its a referendum anyway. in addition the vagaries of election mechanics mean that for most of the Uk not being aligned to the politics of your sitting MP means your vote is wasted as the chance of ousting most is minuscule. And the weight of a labour voter in bojo’s seat is nothing compared to a voters in starmers. And vice versa A referendum, of course, counts every vote with equal weight |
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Post by research0it on Jan 24, 2023 14:48:33 GMT
An election only tells you what people favour on election day - its no different to a referendum. The problem with using an Election to settle a single question is that people vote for more than one thing on election day. The only way around this is to have no policies apart from stay or leave the Union - then its a referendum anyway. in addition the vagaries of election mechanics mean that for most of the Uk not being aligned to the politics of your sitting MP means your vote is wasted as the chance of ousting most is minuscule. And the weight of a labour voter in bojo’s seat is nothing compared to a voters in starmers. And vice versa A referendum, of course, counts every vote with equal weight Hi johnofgwent Yes but it doesn't tell you what they'll think next year. There's no checks and balances. Which is why I came up with my still imperfect proposal. |
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Post by thomas on Jan 24, 2023 16:26:03 GMT
i must have missed that point pacifico.
Wether england or anyone else agreed with treating sinn feins single issue platfrom in the 1918 GE is irrelevant. You claimed it couldnt happen , i have given you an example of when it did. You are missing the point - any individual Party can declare that the General election is about a single issue, but nobody else has to go along with that. If the SNP say that the result of the next election is a mandate for separation everyone else can say no it isnt - and as the electorate didnt vote on a single issue the SNP would have no mandate. ok i see you have slightly moved the goalposts from what you originally said. Moving on...
lets deal with this.
How many times do i need to repeat myself that england , wether its people or politicians , or both , repeatedly didnt go along with many of the countries of the empire leaving , told them they couldnt , and applied all the lame arguments that you are now trying to apply to scotland about "not being allowed"............but it still happened.
Englands rule doesnt crumble because a politican , or leader , or political party wants the westmisnter party out of their country.
It happens when the people of that country want them out.
Saying you cant legally leave , england wont let you leave , you are not allowed , you cant stand on a single mandate to leave and all the rest is irrelevant.
What matters is a majority of scots , like the majority of irish etc , want you out , and then getting international recognition of independence. Neither the russians , chinese , europeans or pretty much most others including the yanks will be inclined to do you any favours.
You are fast becoming as alec salmond recently said the rogue state of western europe.
Changing the rules of democracy on a petulant whim matters not a jot because you dont like the potential consequences.
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Post by Pacifico on Jan 24, 2023 17:40:34 GMT
lets deal with this. How many times do i need to repeat myself that england , wether its people or politicians , or both , repeatedly didnt go along with many of the countries of the empire leaving , told them they couldnt , and applied all the lame arguments that you are now trying to apply to scotland about "not being allowed"............but it still happened. Nothing can stop you leaving - just declare UDI and fuck off. But that is not what the discussion is about - one party cannot simply state that a General Election is going to be fought over a single policy. Each Party will have their own policies and the electorate will vote on a range of policies - nobody has to take any notice. I'm not becoming anything - simply pointing out the fallacy in the SNP's plan. You are the one trying to block democracy by preventing the people having a say over the issues that matter to them. They may not give a toss about Independence and wish to base their vote on the state of the NHS in Scotland - what right do you have to prevent them having their say? |
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Post by thomas on Jan 25, 2023 8:20:02 GMT
lets deal with this. How many times do i need to repeat myself that england , wether its people or politicians , or both , repeatedly didnt go along with many of the countries of the empire leaving , told them they couldnt , and applied all the lame arguments that you are now trying to apply to scotland about "not being allowed"............but it still happened. But that is not what the discussion is about - one party cannot simply state that a General Election is going to be fought over a single policy. Each Party will have their own policies and the electorate will vote on a range of policies - nobody has to take any notice. I'm not becoming anything - simply pointing out the fallacy in the SNP's plan. "cannot"......"fallacy"........"nobody take any notice"........
Heres what the scottish public think.
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Post by thomas on Jan 25, 2023 8:23:03 GMT
lets deal with this. How many times do i need to repeat myself that england , wether its people or politicians , or both , repeatedly didnt go along with many of the countries of the empire leaving , told them they couldnt , and applied all the lame arguments that you are now trying to apply to scotland about "not being allowed"............but it still happened. Nothing can stop you leaving - just declare UDI and fuck off. But that is not what the discussion is about - one party cannot simply state that a General Election is going to be fought over a single policy. Each Party will have their own policies and the electorate will vote on a range of policies - nobody has to take any notice. I'm not becoming anything - simply pointing out the fallacy in the SNP's plan. and a breakdown of the results with further links .....
seems to me pacifico the english government are the only ones trying to stop scotland having its say. Wonder why that is?
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Post by Pacifico on Jan 25, 2023 11:36:22 GMT
Answer me one question - does the National support the Union or Indepoendence?
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Post by thomas on Jan 26, 2023 7:23:06 GMT
Answer me one question - does the National support the Union or Indepoendence? The above poll was conducted by findoutnow.
A member of the highly respected british polling council.
When a member of the british polling council publishes a poll that you british like , you plaster it across forums like this. When a member of the BPC publishes a poll you dont like.......you try and rubbish it .
Sounds like sour grapes to me.
As for the national newspaper........the majority of the media in scotland are foreign owned and support unionism. We have the english broadcasting corporation beaming propaganda into our living rooms. So its laughable trying to dismiss one papers bias in favour of independence , while ignoring the other 99 % bias in favour of the union.
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Post by Pacifico on Jan 26, 2023 8:05:51 GMT
So an Indy supporting publication believes that there is a majority in favour of Independence.
With regards to the poll - the question highlighted in the National was not asked on the poll by findoutnow - so where did the National get those results from?, or did they just make them up?
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Post by happyjack on Jan 26, 2023 8:42:54 GMT
This is, of course about the constitutional question. I think we need to get away from this mania for knife edge referendums So what would be a fair way of settling it? A fair way of settling it would be to have a deep and thorough national conversation about the matter, at the end of which we hold a referendum to determine the will of the Scottish people and then, whatever choice they make, we respect that choice. “Oh, wait a minute, surely we have just done all of that?”, I hear you say. Well, not quite, because although we had the conversation, and although we held the referendum, and although we established the will of the Scottish people, unfortunately far too many of us seemingly don’t respect the Scottish people enough to honour their decision. So isn’t it about time that they did? That’s the only fair way to settle it and that would get us away from this mania for referendums, knife-edge or otherwise. Simples! |
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Post by morayloon on Jan 26, 2023 11:21:49 GMT
So an Indy supporting publication believes that there is a majority in favour of Independence. With regards to the poll - the question highlighted in the National was not asked on the poll by findoutnow - so where did the National get those results from?, or did they just make them up? What do you think of Polls run by BritNat media outlets: The Times - YouGov; Sunday Times - Panelbase; Scotsman - Savanta; STV - Ipsos? On Scottish Independence, with the exception of survation's polls for "Scotland In Union", all pollsters ask the question that was put to the electorate in 2014. Once the questions are set, it is up to the company to get a representative sample and do the statistical analysis. |
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