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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2023 6:26:06 GMT
Brexit had a big part to play in that. During the Labour years the floodgates were opened to economic migrants from poorer parts of Europe, in the belief that far fewer would come than actually did. Some of these migrants helped keep the NHS and care home sector going which was a good thing, but many employers at the lower end exploited this source of cheap labour to hold down pay, whilst landlords exploited the increased numbers to drive up rents. Working class people especially found themselves being economically disadvantaged by these phenomena but if they complained Labour assumed they were racists. This helped to lose Labour much of the working class vote which swung behind Brexit. More middle class elements were not being disadvantaged economically in the same way by and large and tended to benefit from cheaper plumbers, electricians and builders, and remained far more pro-EU. Labour suffered from this class divide over Brexit which as a cause attracted more working class people away from Labour, whilst more pro-EU middle class elements swung towards it rather more. The voter demographics of both the 17 and 19 elections cannot be divorced from the distorting effects of Brexit. What will be more interesting in the fullness of time is what the working class chooses to do going forwards, as Brexit as an issue recedes. One thing is clear. During the Blair years much of the working class ceased to see Labour as their party anymore, and Brexit got in the way of them winning them being won back in the Corbyn era. Not sure the working class will be won back in large numbers by the turbo charged Blairism currently on offer from Starmer either. Currently they are highly dependent upon the crapness of the Tories to have any chance. Labour has become a predominantly affluent liberal middle class party. I suspect Starmer will do reasonably well amongst this demographic but less so amongst the working class good post steve , and i largely agree.
New labour as many have pointed out helped create the fertile breeding ground for much of the politics that exist today , including but not exclusively euroscepticism and the rise of UKIP/Brexit party.
This is still one of the best article i have ever read on that fact , and as you mention , blairs disasterous mass immigration policy in 2004 was the cause of much unrest and anger in England especially....
The whole article is well worth a read..
That article was obviously written in the Osborne/Cameron/ Clegg years or soon after and as such is a little dated but with that proviso it's analysis is spot on. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2023 6:33:20 GMT
Do we have any ‘working class voters’ The traditional working class occupations have been eradicated so the only working class voters are for the most part surely unemployed voters, or foreigners engaged in the delivering gig economy who have no vote outside labour controlled wales and SNP controlled Scotland where the immigrant non citizen population are needed to keep the tories out. Of course we have working class voters - builders, plumbers, electricians, bus drivers, taxi drivers, retail sector workers, hospitality workers, cleaners, nurses, caterers, secretaries, hairdressers, firemen, factory workers, delivery drivers, postmen and women, etc, etc. There are in fact still many millions of us. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2023 7:47:49 GMT
Brexit had a big part to play in that. During the Labour years the floodgates were opened to economic migrants from poorer parts of Europe, in the belief that far fewer would come than actually did. Some of these migrants helped keep the NHS and care home sector going which was a good thing, but many employers at the lower end exploited this source of cheap labour to hold down pay, whilst landlords exploited the increased numbers to drive up rents. Working class people especially found themselves being economically disadvantaged by these phenomena but if they complained Labour assumed they were racists. This helped to lose Labour much of the working class vote which swung behind Brexit. More middle class elements were not being disadvantaged economically in the same way by and large and tended to benefit from cheaper plumbers, electricians and builders, and remained far more pro-EU. Labour suffered from this class divide over Brexit which as a cause attracted more working class people away from Labour, whilst more pro-EU middle class elements swung towards it rather more. The voter demographics of both the 17 and 19 elections cannot be divorced from the distorting effects of Brexit. What will be more interesting in the fullness of time is what the working class chooses to do going forwards, as Brexit as an issue recedes. One thing is clear. During the Blair years much of the working class ceased to see Labour as their party anymore, and Brexit got in the way of them being won back in the Corbyn era. Not sure the working class will be won back in large numbers by the turbo charged Blairism currently on offer from Starmer either. Currently they are highly dependent upon the crapness of the Tories to have any chance. Labour has become a predominantly affluent liberal middle class party. I suspect Starmer will do reasonably well amongst this demographic but less so amongst the working class Blimey, I agree with you. Chalk that one up for posterity. And yes Labour has become a predominantly affluent liberal middle class party. Or, in other words, a party for the people who can afford them. And I'm not sure that the genuine working class can actually afford them. Problem is, they cannot afford the Tories either. So where do they go? FPTP is their worst enemy when neither main party effectively serves their interests. |
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Post by Pacifico on Jan 8, 2023 8:45:13 GMT
Starmer off to get his orders next week...  |
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Post by thomas on Jan 8, 2023 9:28:22 GMT
good post steve , and i largely agree.
New labour as many have pointed out helped create the fertile breeding ground for much of the politics that exist today , including but not exclusively euroscepticism and the rise of UKIP/Brexit party.
This is still one of the best article i have ever read on that fact , and as you mention , blairs disasterous mass immigration policy in 2004 was the cause of much unrest and anger in England especially....
The whole article is well worth a read..
That article was obviously written in the Osborne/Cameron/ Clegg years or soon after and as such is a little dated but with that proviso it's analysis is spot on. Pretty much steve , because many of the same faces in charge during millibands time as labour leader , including starmers right hand man milliband himself , are back at the helm of this current reincarnation of new labour as we both know.
The faces come and go , but the inept political tactics remain the same.
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Post by see2 on Jan 8, 2023 10:51:29 GMT
Starmer off to get his orders next week... Its about keeping in touch with an open mind. __"The World Economic Forum (WEF) is an international non-governmental and lobbying organisation[1] based in Cologny, canton of Geneva, Switzerland. It was founded on 24 January 1971 by German engineer and economist Klaus Schwab. The foundation, which is mostly funded by its 1,000 member companies – typically global enterprises with more than five billion US dollars in turnover – as well as public subsidies, views its own mission as "improving the state of the world by engaging business, political, academic, and other leaders of society to shape global, regional, and industry agendas"__ |
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Post by see2 on Jan 8, 2023 11:11:19 GMT
AFAIA many people on the minimum wage were paid above the minimum. They were? - thats a good trick..  As clearly stated in my post I did not state my comment as a fact. I accept that I might have been misled, but straight from the horses that is. I am aware that many companies illegally paid lower than the minimum wage and that some of them have been named and shamed. |
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Post by Pacifico on Jan 8, 2023 11:19:58 GMT
Starmer off to get his orders next week... Its about keeping in touch with an open mind. __"The World Economic Forum (WEF) is an international non-governmental and lobbying organisation[1] based in Cologny, canton of Geneva, Switzerland. It was founded on 24 January 1971 by German engineer and economist Klaus Schwab. The foundation, which is mostly funded by its 1,000 member companies – typically global enterprises with more than five billion US dollars in turnover – as well as public subsidies, views its own mission as "improving the state of the world by engaging business, political, academic, and other leaders of society to shape global, regional, and industry agendas"__For whose benefit? |
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Post by see2 on Jan 8, 2023 11:25:13 GMT
Around 45% of migrants from the EU were well educated. It seems that most could speak English probably giving them two languages. The reason the increases in migration was allowed is because the economy was flourishing. Despite the whinge about the supposed opening of the flood gates to EU migrants, unemployment remained low. Most migrants into the UK came from outside of the EU. Yet there were virtually no complaints about that. AFAIA many people on the minimum wage were paid above the minimum. A scarcity of labour will increase income for those available to work, but it also reduces expansion in the economy and less government income from taxation. The answer lies in the level of the wage, not in fewer people in the workplace. The MINIMUM wage was a Minimum, not a maximum, where were the Trade Unions? Really cheap labour existed BEFORE the minimum wage existed, which is why the minimum wage was introduced.Can you name a NL MP who claimed or assumed that people who objected to the migration from the EU are "racist"? if you can I will show you a fool. You always seem to see the glass half empty in these areas instead of seeing it half full, Gordon Brown himself notoriously called Gillian Duffy a racist when he thought the microphones were off. And I was all over the internet including on facebook Labour party forums for members and supporters and was forever encountering Blairite types mistaking legitimate working class concerns for racism. And in my area most of the cheap labour being used to keep down pay in the construction sector and other related sectors like plumbing, carpentry, and electrical tended to be East European. My city's social housing stock was getting new bathrooms and kitchens fitted towards the latter New Labour years. Five contractors were chosen for the work. Four of them employed exclusively east European labour. One of these had just laid off it's entire British local workforce and replaced them with Romanians on minimum wage. This was the reality we could see on the ground around us and if we complained about it we were racists. Brown called Gillian Duffy a "bigoted woman" that is not an accusation of being a racist. |
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Post by Bentley on Jan 8, 2023 11:33:14 GMT
Gordon Brown himself notoriously called Gillian Duffy a racist when he thought the microphones were off. And I was all over the internet including on facebook Labour party forums for members and supporters and was forever encountering Blairite types mistaking legitimate working class concerns for racism. And in my area most of the cheap labour being used to keep down pay in the construction sector and other related sectors like plumbing, carpentry, and electrical tended to be East European. My city's social housing stock was getting new bathrooms and kitchens fitted towards the latter New Labour years. Five contractors were chosen for the work. Four of them employed exclusively east European labour. One of these had just laid off it's entire British local workforce and replaced them with Romanians on minimum wage. This was the reality we could see on the ground around us and if we complained about it we were racists. Brown called Gillian Duffy a "bigoted woman" that is not an accusation of being a racist. How disingenuous of you. Guardian quote ..”at one point, Duffy mentioned the presence of eastern Europeans in Britain but did not develop her argument.” Brown accused Duffy of being bigoted over comments about Eastern Europeans. That’s essentially calling her racist. |
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Post by see2 on Jan 8, 2023 11:38:20 GMT
Its about keeping in touch with an open mind. __"The World Economic Forum (WEF) is an international non-governmental and lobbying organisation[1] based in Cologny, canton of Geneva, Switzerland. It was founded on 24 January 1971 by German engineer and economist Klaus Schwab. The foundation, which is mostly funded by its 1,000 member companies – typically global enterprises with more than five billion US dollars in turnover – as well as public subsidies, views its own mission as "improving the state of the world by engaging business, political, academic, and other leaders of society to shape global, regional, and industry agendas"__For whose benefit? "Its own mission" is not the point, the point is about Starmer being aware of what is being talked about and what direction many of those who attended are postulating about the future. |
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Post by see2 on Jan 8, 2023 11:41:29 GMT
Brown called Gillian Duffy a "bigoted woman" that is not an accusation of being a racist. How disingenuous of you. Guardian quote ..”at one point, Duffy mentioned the presence of eastern Europeans in Britain but did not develop her argument.” Brown accused Duffy of being bigoted over comments about Eastern Europeans. That’s essentially calling her racist. No, that is just a straw you are grasping at. I have no doubt that Brown knows the difference between the words Racist and Bigot. |
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Post by Bentley on Jan 8, 2023 11:45:43 GMT
How disingenuous of you. Guardian quote ..”at one point, Duffy mentioned the presence of eastern Europeans in Britain but did not develop her argument.” Brown accused Duffy of being bigoted over comments about Eastern Europeans. That’s essentially calling her racist. No, that is just a straw you are grasping at. I have no doubt that Brown knows the difference between the words Racist and Bigot. No. It’s a rational argument and a valid point. Brown accused a women of being a bigot because of her comment about East Europeans .Thus he was calling her a racist . You wanted an example of your immaturity. Your inability to accept a valid point regarding your political hero is a compelling one. |
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Post by see2 on Jan 8, 2023 12:00:28 GMT
No, that is just a straw you are grasping at. I have no doubt that Brown knows the difference between the words Racist and Bigot. No. It’s a rational argument and a valid point. Brown accused a women of being a bigot because of her comment about East Europeans .Thus he was calling her a racist . You wanted an example of your immaturity. Your inability to accept a valid point regarding your political hero is a compelling one. Apart from her short comment about Eastern Europeans they actually debated anything but. Your inability / refusal to accept the truth about that situation is a more compelling one. Why not look up the meaning of the words 'Racist' and 'Bigot'? |
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Post by Bentley on Jan 8, 2023 12:12:46 GMT
No. It’s a rational argument and a valid point. Brown accused a women of being a bigot because of her comment about East Europeans .Thus he was calling her a racist . You wanted an example of your immaturity. Your inability to accept a valid point regarding your political hero is a compelling one. Apart from her short comment about Eastern Europeans they actually debated anything but. Your inability / refusal to accept the truth about that situation is a more compelling one. Why not look up the meaning of the words 'Racist' and 'Bigot'? Why not be honest and accept that bigotry towards ethnic groups equates to racism . Rather than a desperate attempt to turn this into semantic obfuscation. |
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