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Post by Equivocal on Dec 31, 2022 12:28:03 GMT
According to this article the Italian state has failed in its bid to successfully prosecute anyone, and there is one outstanding case which apparently turns on the allegation that the crew was somehow conspiring with people smugglers. The article is an 'opinion piece', so I suppose it should be treated as such.
The Luventa case is ongoing and very real and proves my point that we cannot force France to do the right thing. I think the Italian saga proves that RR's source was correct, and states can't legally prosecute/persecute rescuers for landing the rescued. Given France's very vocal criticism of Italy's tactics, I think it would be very difficult for the French to employ similar tactics.
That said, it's hardly likely that British rescue ships will seek to land the people they pick up at French ports.
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Post by Steve on Dec 31, 2022 13:06:54 GMT
The Luventa case is ongoing and very real and proves my point that we cannot force France to do the right thing. I think the Italian saga proves that RR's source was correct, and states can't legally prosecute/persecute rescuers for landing the rescued. Given France's very vocal criticism of Italy's tactics, I think it would be very difficult for the French to employ similar tactics.
That said, it's hardly likely that British rescue ships will seek to land the people they pick up at French ports.
You do know the case isn't closed don't you You do know that Red's supposed point was we could just sail a cargo of 'migrants' in to any French port and say 'there you go, dry land' and all would go well. Well he's wrong and the Italy case is further proof of that. BTW Red still hasn't identified a court that would actually sanction France for not co-operating in such a return scheme. Because there isn't. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Dec 31, 2022 14:12:59 GMT
I don't think it's the French that the PTB are cpncerned about upsetting, it's the North London opinion-forming class that they're really frightened of. Imagine being a cabinet minister and never being invited to an Islington dinner party ever again. The ultimate social put-down.
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Post by bancroft on Dec 31, 2022 14:29:27 GMT
I don't think it's the French that the PTB are cpncerned about upsetting, it's the North London opinion-forming class that they're really frightened of. Imagine being a cabinet minister and never being invited to an Islington dinner party ever again. The ultimate social put-down. I don't think the Tory Right MPs ever go to the Islington dinner part sets what we might be talking about is the liberal dominated media vilifying them for the rest of their lives and so preventing any other income once they are out of politics. |
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Post by Equivocal on Dec 31, 2022 15:37:26 GMT
I think the Italian saga proves that RR's source was correct, and states can't legally prosecute/persecute rescuers for landing the rescued. Given France's very vocal criticism of Italy's tactics, I think it would be very difficult for the French to employ similar tactics.
That said, it's hardly likely that British rescue ships will seek to land the people they pick up at French ports.
You do know the case isn't closed don't you You do know that Red's supposed point was we could just sail a cargo of 'migrants' in to any French port and say 'there you go, dry land' and all would go well. Well he's wrong and the Italy case is further proof of that. BTW Red still hasn't identified a court that would actually sanction France for not co-operating in such a return scheme. Because there isn't. |
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Post by Equivocal on Dec 31, 2022 15:58:31 GMT
You do know the case isn't closed don't you You do know that Red's supposed point was we could just sail a cargo of 'migrants' in to any French port and say 'there you go, dry land' and all would go well. Well he's wrong and the Italy case is further proof of that. BTW Red still hasn't identified a court that would actually sanction France for not co-operating in such a return scheme. Because there isn't. It would be surprising if I didn't know one case was still open, since I linked an article which said exactly that.
You appear to be missing the point; the particular case turns on the issue of the crew conspiring with people smugglers. That is to say, not a bona fide rescue but a conspiracy to facilitate illegal immigration, if proved.
If the matter of refusal to allow docking were to go to law, I presume the French courts would have jurisdiction as would the the courts in England and Wales were the issue to arise here.
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Post by Steve on Dec 31, 2022 17:52:26 GMT
So the French courts would rule that it wasn't legal for the UK to dump 'migrants' on their shores so any imprisonment of said captain and confiscation of the boat would happen wouldn't it.
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Post by Red Rackham on Dec 31, 2022 18:04:08 GMT
The issue I wrote to is the constant squealing about sending migrants back to France. If the majority of migrants are Albanians, send them back to Albania! France has nothing to do with this Every illegal that lands on an English beach comes from France. France has everything to do with it. |
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Post by Red Rackham on Dec 31, 2022 18:16:50 GMT
You do know that Red's supposed point was we could just sail a cargo of 'migrants' in to any French port and say 'there you go, dry land' and all would go well. Well he's wrong and the Italy case is further proof of that. BTW Red still hasn't identified a court that would actually sanction France for not co-operating in such a return scheme. Because there isn't. That is absolute nonsense. I said no such thing. FFS this akin to explaining quantum theory to an imbecile. The United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea states the captain of a vessel who picks people up at sea can take them to any safe port, it is entirely the captains decision. In the case of the Luventa, the Italian authorities claim to have proof that the captain of that vessel, Pia Klemp who is a German human rights activist, colluded with people smugglers to get migrants from Libya to Europe. If you don't understand any of the above, for god sake ask an adult to explain. |
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Post by Steve on Dec 31, 2022 18:18:12 GMT
Ahem, oh yes you did: And if the French block his path, what's he going to do, call up his own Navy? Actually it's more like the French would arrest him and confiscate his boat but the point is still the same, you can't actually force the French to accept them back. I don't like it, you won't like it but it's best to deal with reality than deny it. LOL, honestly, I'm almost embarrassed to say this, again. Did you miss this bit... ...if a vessel rescues people at sea, it is entirely the captains decision where he lands them, the captains decision is final. He said this is the internationally recognised law of the sea and it would be against international law for the French government to refuse permission for such a vessel to enter a French port.
If the French did refuse access, then it would be a matter for international courts/UN. |
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Post by Red Rackham on Dec 31, 2022 18:25:51 GMT
Ahem, oh yes you did: LOL, honestly, I'm almost embarrassed to say this, again. Did you miss this bit... ...if a vessel rescues people at sea, it is entirely the captains decision where he lands them, the captains decision is final. He said this is the internationally recognised law of the sea and it would be against international law for the French government to refuse permission for such a vessel to enter a French port.
Yes of course! Unless the French authorities had evidence that the captain of said vessel had somehow broken the law. Colluding with people traffickers, for instance! How can something so simple be so difficult for you to understand? |
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Post by Steve on Dec 31, 2022 18:44:11 GMT
look you made a boast about international courts, were asked to name a relevant one and, as I pointed out, you haven't. Maybe you could have another try.
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Post by Equivocal on Dec 31, 2022 20:45:39 GMT
So the French courts would rule that it wasn't legal for the UK to dump 'migrants' on their shores so any imprisonment of said captain and confiscation of the boat would happen wouldn't it. It might be an idea to see how the cases plodding through the Italian courts turn out before deciding how the French courts might rule.
I think it's pretty certain that vessels picking up channel migrants and under the control of the UK government would probably fall foul of the rescue condition. On the other hand, I'd be very surprised if the French were to refuse docking to an RNLI vessel or a merchantman that had performed a rescue.
As I said in my first post, it's hardly likely that an RNLI vessel or a 'patrol' vessel acting under the control of HMG would seek to land these migrants in a French port. As such, it's really a non issue in the UK context. On the other hand and as demonstrated by the reversal of convictions, fines and seizures, the Italian approach is probably unlawful in both international law and a breach of its constitution and national laws.
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Post by research0it on Jan 1, 2023 11:03:57 GMT
I'm new here and am puzzled by the arguments surrounding France particularly.
So a refugee from Sudan flees. The refugee enters Ethiopia, one of the neighbouring countries. By the logic of what some say, should that refugee decide to keep going then that tefugee will become an illegal immigrant the moment Ethiopia is in the rear view mirror?
You cannot be serious! If so then that's bad luck on Ethiopia.
To illustrate suppose England wales and Scotland were separate countries and something happened to make England uninhabitable. Wales and Scotland were still ok. 55 million people fleeing to Wales and Scotland would completely overwhelm both countries, to the detriment of the existing population AND the refugees from England.
So it would be ok for the world to say that they're not helping as they are now safe and no longer refugees?
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Post by oracle75 on Jan 1, 2023 12:50:35 GMT
The issue I wrote to is the constant squealing about sending migrants back to France. If the majority of migrants are Albanians, send them back to Albania! France has nothing to do with this Every illegal that lands on an English beach comes from France. France has everything to do with it. France has no more responsibility for them than the UK or any other country they have passed through. Including Italy, Germany, Luxembourg, Estonia and others. Look on a map to see where an Afghan or Syrian refugee would have to pass. This idea you have about it being France's problem lis a media inspired trope turned into a hive mind rallying call, often confirming unconscious cultural bias. Any country has the sovereign right to refuse entry to any of its territory. It is up to that country to enforce that and we should stop dumping the issue at the door of the nearest neighbouring country. |
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