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Post by Toreador on Dec 12, 2022 22:46:36 GMT
They have bow found a way of producing more energy than is used in production, though it will be years before it becomes commerscial.
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Post by Montegriffo on Dec 12, 2022 23:18:21 GMT
The problem is governments, particularly western governments and especially our government, since at least 2008 have been more concerned about showing the world how 'green' they are, without fully considering the realities of being green. The fact is we closed our coal power stations too quickly and without a backup plan, other than Russian gas. We now know that renewable energy is expensive and unreliable and without massive subsidies private enterprise wouldn't be interested in it. The global solar farm in Africa is an interesting idea and works great, on paper. In reality it's a none starter, yes a solar panel in the Sahara generates three times more power than a solar panel in the UK, but transmission losses are not insignificant and the costs involved are eye watering, I think the initial cost was half a trillion dollars and the problems were huge. I seem to remember a major concern from an investors point of view was the risk involved in investing in countries that are not politically stable and you have no control over. I posted a link about it a while back... Here it is, have a look at this - youtu.be/7OpM_zKGE4o - it explains the problems of the global solar farm quite well. OK I'll take a look at that. I did try a while back to establish the economics of PV power generation but each one has a different economic performance. I've seen PV at 11p/watt with some suppliers in large quantities. Delivery from China is still costly at £7k per container, where once it was £3k and peaked at £10k. You can get 300 panels per container or 600 square meters. The thing is that even in the UK you can get about 1.2kwh of electricity per year for each watt of panel. This could make the payback period and generally the investment very profitable, far more so than 2% in a building society given to proles. Why we can't do it is because the stupid government can't upgrade the grid to handle it so some are having to wait many years before given permission to create a solar farm.
Edit - I've just noticed the first error in the calculations of the cost of the cable in the video. Not too smart.
The Noor solar plant doesn't rely on just PV generation. Electricity is produced using concave mirrors which concentrates the heat onto oil filled pipes which reach 400C and then powers a conventional steam turbine. Spare heat is used to warm up huge vats of molten salt which can then generate power for 6 hours after the sun goes down. Simple technology that doesn't require any rare materials like PV panels. The mirrors track the sun as it moves across the sky.  |
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Post by Red Rackham on Dec 12, 2022 23:31:16 GMT
Noor 1,2 and 3 have big problems. Water supply in an area that has very little water, fossil fuels for cooling, displacing local tribes, cost is eye watering, transmission losses, etc etc. The link I posted above is quite interesting. youtu.be/7OpM_zKGE4o  |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Dec 12, 2022 23:50:16 GMT
The sun shines in far more places than just that country. If push came to shove we could float them off the coast in international waters. I personally would not put all my eggs in one basket. This is hedging your bets. Indeed, but one big downside to innovative new forms of renewable energy is cost. You cannot get away from the fact that with current technology renewables are unreliable and very expensive. Everything is expensive to produce in this country just about. If you scale up production and automate it the price crashes down. You aught to take a look at Chinese factories. They are bloody incredible. See how big they are. In a polycrystalline factory (the stuff used for solar panels) instead of staff working in the factory, there are just rows of computers they work at and all the stuff going on in the factory is on their screen. Only one guy needs to actually take a look around the actual machinery. He just does a few physical checks for safety, but the whole thing is mega large. Staff say this computerisation happened about ten years ago and now they far prefer their jobs. This will be the new normal - no one in the cold noisy smelly industrial plants, just people in nice warm offices on comfy chairs. |
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Post by Red Rackham on Dec 13, 2022 0:11:36 GMT
Indeed, but one big downside to innovative new forms of renewable energy is cost. You cannot get away from the fact that with current technology renewables are unreliable and very expensive. Everything is expensive to produce in this country just about. If you scale up production and automate it the price crashes down. You aught to take a look at Chinese factories. They are bloody incredible. See how big they are. In a polycrystalline factory (the stuff used for solar panels) instead of staff working in the factory, there are just rows of computers they work at and all the stuff going on in the factory is on their screen. Only one guy needs to actually take a look around the actual machinery. He just does a few physical checks for safety, but the whole thing is mega large. Staff say this computerisation happened about ten years ago and now they far prefer their jobs. This will be the new normal - no one in the cold noisy smelly industrial plants, just people in nice warm offices on comfy chairs. BvL, the reason China will in all likelihood probably in less than 20 years become the biggest economy in the world, is fossil fuel. As far as the Chinese communist party is concerned net-zero is something the west do. China are not only building the biggest coal power plants in the world, they are building them in many other countries, with a proviso they buy Chinese coal. It's the way they do business, and is the reason the Chinese economy will grow as western economies shrink as they struggle with the costs of net-zero. www.newscientist.com/article/2317274-china-is-building-more-than-half-of-the-worlds-new-coal-power-plants/ |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Dec 13, 2022 0:13:07 GMT
Actually although you can do this with PV, it turns out it is more economical to spend your money on more panels. The tracking system is rather costly.
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Dec 13, 2022 0:19:47 GMT
Everything is expensive to produce in this country just about. If you scale up production and automate it the price crashes down. You aught to take a look at Chinese factories. They are bloody incredible. See how big they are. In a polycrystalline factory (the stuff used for solar panels) instead of staff working in the factory, there are just rows of computers they work at and all the stuff going on in the factory is on their screen. Only one guy needs to actually take a look around the actual machinery. He just does a few physical checks for safety, but the whole thing is mega large. Staff say this computerisation happened about ten years ago and now they far prefer their jobs. This will be the new normal - no one in the cold noisy smelly industrial plants, just people in nice warm offices on comfy chairs. BvL, the reason China will in all likelihood probably in less than 20 years become the biggest economy in the world, is fossil fuel. As far as the Chinese communist party is concerned net-zero is something the west do. China are not only building the biggest coal power plants in the world, they are building them in many other countries, with a proviso they buy Chinese coal. It's the way they do business, and is the reason the Chinese economy will grow as western economies shrink as they struggle with the costs of net-zero. www.newscientist.com/article/2317274-china-is-building-more-than-half-of-the-worlds-new-coal-power-plants/To be net zero by 2060 is a bigger goal than any other country because they are the world's manufacturer. We have simply opted to shift our production over to them so we get our green brownie points. President Xi Jinping is personally committed to green energy. If he says it is good and it will happen then it will. Their solar technology will also be used to bring down carbon emissions all over the world. You'll get to understand this about the Chinese that they are reasonable people and aim to keep their promises. We do not cut them enough slack sometimes and expect better behaviour and performance then we achieve ourselves. Better to work with them and learn some tricks about cheap production. |
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Post by Red Rackham on Dec 13, 2022 0:45:17 GMT
To be net zero by 2060 is a bigger goal than any other country because they are the world's manufacturer. We have simply opted to shift our production over to them so we get our green brownie points. President Xi Jinping is personally committed to green energy. If he says it is good and it will happen then it will. Their solar technology will also be used to bring down carbon emissions all over the world. You'll get to understand this about the Chinese that they are reasonable people and aim to keep their promises. We do not cut them enough slack sometimes and expect better behaviour and performance then we achieve ourselves. Better to work with them and learn some tricks about cheap production. Oh ffs don't fuck me about BvL, Xi Jinping is not committed to net-zero, ffs he has committed to build hundreds of new coal fired power plants. And lets not forget that Chinese coal fired power stations aren't like our coal fired power stations used to be before we were stupid enough to demolish them, most of which were 1MW. The Chinese don't bother with piffling 1MW plants, they build big fuckers, 5 & 6 MW is the norm and they have about, I think just under 1,200 at the moment. In 2019 the Chinese government said they will build 2 new coal fired power plants a month for the next 12 years, which is what, another 288 coal fired power stations by 2031. BvL, don't talk to me about net-zero being an aim of the Chinese. You may buy into that bullshit, tbh I'm not convinced you do, I don't think you're that stupid. The Chinese see net-zero as an opportunity, and they're grabbing it with both hands. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Dec 13, 2022 2:13:46 GMT
To be net zero by 2060 is a bigger goal than any other country because they are the world's manufacturer. We have simply opted to shift our production over to them so we get our green brownie points. President Xi Jinping is personally committed to green energy. If he says it is good and it will happen then it will. Their solar technology will also be used to bring down carbon emissions all over the world. You'll get to understand this about the Chinese that they are reasonable people and aim to keep their promises. We do not cut them enough slack sometimes and expect better behaviour and performance then we achieve ourselves. Better to work with them and learn some tricks about cheap production. Oh ffs don't fuck me about BvL, Xi Jinping is not committed to net-zero, ffs he has committed to build hundreds of new coal fired power plants. And lets not forget that Chinese coal fired power stations aren't like our coal fired power stations used to be before we were stupid enough to demolish them, most of which were 1MW. The Chinese don't bother with piffling 1MW plants, they build big fuckers, 5 & 6 MW is the norm and they have about, I think just under 1,200 at the moment. In 2019 the Chinese government said they will build 2 new coal fired power plants a month for the next 12 years, which is what, another 288 coal fired power stations by 2031. BvL, don't talk to me about net-zero being an aim of the Chinese. You may buy into that bullshit, tbh I'm not convinced you do, I don't think you're that stupid. The Chinese see net-zero as an opportunity, and they're grabbing it with both hands. Maybe it is just that I keep on top of what they do because I have a technical interest in their projects. They are serious alright. I don't have the details on every decision. You can clean the fumes up at the point of emission. Perhaps this is what they are planning on. I wish our country would pay as much interest to their own back yard as they find time to knock the Chinese. It looks to me like the bad loser syndrome with the Brits. |
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Post by Red Rackham on Dec 13, 2022 2:46:07 GMT
Maybe it is just that I keep on top of what they do because I have a technical interest in their projects. They are serious alright. I don't have the details on every decision. You can clean the fumes up at the point of emission. Perhaps this is what they are planning on. I wish our country would pay as much interest to their own back yard as they find time to knock the Chinese. It looks to me like the bad loser syndrome with the Brits. I don't disagree, the Chinese are very serious. The fumes point, you mentioned. That's not new tech, flue-gas desulfurization is 1990's tech. Since then various scrubbers and filters depending on the plant and type of coal was developing all the time. Sadly since coal became a dirty word which was probably around 2005 onwards, R&D into clean burn, clean coal tech was all but scrapped. The eco lobby ensured any company that invested in such tech would get bad press. Just for interest, do you know what we did with the crap that was extracted just before it went up the chimney? Once it went through the FGD and a process of water and filters it came out as a thick, kind of gel, clay like substance. We just shoveled it up, I'm not talking mk1 shovel btw, I'm talking Volvo 330 and Liebherr 586, and we tipped it back in the hoppers so it was burned again, and again. It never went up the chimney. But people dont know that. In my experience people who insist coal is bad generally speaking don't know much about coal. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Dec 13, 2022 13:06:40 GMT
Maybe it is just that I keep on top of what they do because I have a technical interest in their projects. They are serious alright. I don't have the details on every decision. You can clean the fumes up at the point of emission. Perhaps this is what they are planning on. I wish our country would pay as much interest to their own back yard as they find time to knock the Chinese. It looks to me like the bad loser syndrome with the Brits. I don't disagree, the Chinese are very serious. The fumes point, you mentioned. That's not new tech, flue-gas desulfurization is 1990's tech. Since then various scrubbers and filters depending on the plant and type of coal was developing all the time. Sadly since coal became a dirty word which was probably around 2005 onwards, R&D into clean burn, clean coal tech was all but scrapped. The eco lobby ensured any company that invested in such tech would get bad press. Just for interest, do you know what we did with the crap that was extracted just before it went up the chimney? Once it went through the FGD and a process of water and filters it came out as a thick, kind of gel, clay like substance. We just shoveled it up, I'm not talking mk1 shovel btw, I'm talking Volvo 330 and Liebherr 586, and we tipped it back in the hoppers so it was burned again, and again. It never went up the chimney. But people dont know that. In my experience people who insist coal is bad generally speaking don't know much about coal. One thing I find about the Chinese is they are not stupid. If the Brits were doing this in the 90s chances are they have even better technology now. Yes I'm with you on the "if it is coal it is going to kill us all" attitude from the new students of the wokerversity. They are holding back our industry. Man can not live off focus groups alone. Man needs fuel.
By the way, here is a good channel which gives you the latest in PV technology.
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Dec 14, 2022 16:11:00 GMT
There is a state media debate here on what China is doing about pollution. They have been measuring it and have good results to report. It is getting cleaner.
I have a map of overall air quality in the world. This is China
As you can see, it varies from moderate ~ 50 or so, right up to over 200 in some places.
UK bad in London, other major cities also high. In Salisbury it is measuring 0.
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Post by besoeker3 on Dec 19, 2022 20:15:47 GMT
Net-zero & the green dream LOL, what a complete con. National Grid have asked Drax to prepare two mothballed coal units in readiness to bring them on line, it will take about 24 hours to warm them up, but why are we so desperately short of electricity, the government have spent many £billions of our cash on so called green energy not to mention the green subsidy we are all forced to pay which increases our bills. Yet at the first hint of a cold snap there are warnings of power cuts and mothballed coal units are being warmed up. How can this be? I mean we have solar and all those lovely windmills, what's gone wrong? I wonder, will the penny finally drop? Will green zealots finally admit that with current technology solar and wind will never provide enough power, which is likely to be the case for the next 50 years. Or will they continue to weep as they demand we stop burning fossil fuel now even if does mean we freeze to death and UK Plc is switched off. metro.co.uk/2022/12/12/two-coal-fired-power-plants-put-on-emergency-standby-due-to-snowy-weather-17920200/Actually you probably don't know but there is another design for wind turbines that float on the water and they store energy by raising and lowering a weight between the sea floor and the surface. Dinorweg has the same. What people don't seem to grasp is scale. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Dec 19, 2022 21:04:52 GMT
Actually you probably don't know but there is another design for wind turbines that float on the water and they store energy by raising and lowering a weight between the sea floor and the surface. Dinorweg has the same. What people don't seem to grasp is scale. You aught to factor in all the issues. This video gives you a quick overview of how they work and crucially why they will be more cost-effective. The scale is proportionate. The amount stored is enough to maintain a constant output, or even an output that can be very responsive to the demand. As the wind drops so the electronics switch to providing the power from the weight. It's a distributive system so no singe point of failure, simply switch out any that develop a fault automatically.
By the way, if you were really smart you could get a weather forecast and they could chase the wind and hook up to another location.
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Post by besoeker3 on Dec 19, 2022 21:19:28 GMT
Dinorweg has the same. What people don't seem to grasp is scale.
By the way, if you were really smart you could get a weather forecast and they could chase the wind and hook up to another location.
Obviously I am dense - according to you. |
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