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Post by Einhorn on Dec 9, 2022 23:06:30 GMT
This is an attempt to stop the new thread re the 2016 referendum going off on a tangent.
It has been pointed out that the High Court has decided that the 2016 referendum was undemocratic, but could not be set aside because it was not binding on the government. Believing attack is the best form of defence, some Brexiters have decided to make the 1975 referendum the main issue. Let's discuss that here, instead.
Was the 1975 referendum democratic?
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Post by Einhorn on Dec 9, 2022 23:17:23 GMT
Posted by Sandy:
It was Wilson that said it and it was an item of a referendum vote giving the conditions upon which acceptance of a restriction of their democratic rights would be predicated. It was not a promise of any government. No government can bind a following one, in the same way no government (if we are indeed looking at the common law definition of democracy) can remove from the electorate that for which their permission was originally sought. The 1975 referendum was a mandate from the people giving to government the right to proceed as directed. If that direction was changed in a meaningful way, and there is little doubt it was, then common law consideration of democracy should apply if we are indeed discussing the meaning of the will of the people. Are we?
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Post by sandypine on Dec 9, 2022 23:21:32 GMT
This is an attempt to stop the new thread re the 2016 referendum going off on a tangent. It has been pointed out that the High Court has decided that the 2016 referendum was undemocratic, but could not be set aside because it was not binding on the government. Believing attack is the best form of defence, some Brexiters have decided to make the 1975 referendum the main issue. Let's discuss that here, instead. Was the 1975 referendum democratic? Again I disagree. You cannot have a discussion of the common law of democracy and restrict the insidious usurping of that principle to the 2016 referendum. The history of our involvement with this EU is littered with people lying to the electorate and presenting them with false information. |
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Post by Einhorn on Dec 9, 2022 23:24:43 GMT
This is an attempt to stop the new thread re the 2016 referendum going off on a tangent. It has been pointed out that the High Court has decided that the 2016 referendum was undemocratic, but could not be set aside because it was not binding on the government. Believing attack is the best form of defence, some Brexiters have decided to make the 1975 referendum the main issue. Let's discuss that here, instead. Was the 1975 referendum democratic? Again I disagree. You cannot have a discussion of the common law of democracy and restrict the insidious usurping of that principle to the 2016 referendum. The history of our involvement with this EU is littered with people lying to the electorate and presenting them with false information. You can certainly discuss the legality of the 2016 and 1975 referendums separately. You can point out where and when the accepted understanding of 'democratic' was breached in both cases. As pointed out, the High Court has said that the 2016 referendum was undemocratic. Reasons were given for that decision. If you can point to similar reasons why the 1975 referendum was undemocratic, you can share them with us here. |
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Post by sandypine on Dec 9, 2022 23:30:34 GMT
Again I disagree. You cannot have a discussion of the common law of democracy and restrict the insidious usurping of that principle to the 2016 referendum. The history of our involvement with this EU is littered with people lying to the electorate and presenting them with false information. You can certainly discuss the legality of the 2016 and 1975 referendums separately. You can point out where and when the accepted understanding of 'democratic' was breached in both cases. As pointed out, the High Court has said that the 2016 referendum was undemocratic. Reasons were given for that decision. If you can point to similar reasons why the 1975 referendum was undemocratic, you can share them with us here. I am referring specifically to your link and to the QC who said "The will of the people is meaningless if the people were victims of corrupt practices or lied to." You supported her comments as regards democracy and common law so it all seems pretty relevant. They are all interlinked as those of us who have been lied to for 50 years know only too well. |
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Post by Einhorn on Dec 9, 2022 23:33:17 GMT
You can certainly discuss the legality of the 2016 and 1975 referendums separately. You can point out where and when the accepted understanding of 'democratic' was breached in both cases. As pointed out, the High Court has said that the 2016 referendum was undemocratic. Reasons were given for that decision. If you can point to similar reasons why the 1975 referendum was undemocratic, you can share them with us here. I am referring specifically to your link and to the QC who said "The will of the people is meaningless if the people were victims of corrupt practices or lied to." You supported her comments as regards democracy and common law so it all seems pretty relevant. They are all interlinked as those of us who have been lied to for 50 years know only too well. Yet, they were two different referendums, subject to separate scrutiny re their legality. You can explain why the 1975 referendum was void here, while arguing against the High Court's decision that the 2016 was undemocratic in the other thread. |
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Post by Pacifico on Dec 10, 2022 8:09:42 GMT
This is an attempt to stop the new thread re the 2016 referendum going off on a tangent. It has been pointed out that the High Court has decided that the 2016 referendum was undemocratic, but could not be set aside because it was not binding on the government. Believing attack is the best form of defence, some Brexiters have decided to make the 1975 referendum the main issue. Let's discuss that here, instead. Was the 1975 referendum democratic? Both the 2016 and 1975 referendums were democratic - Parliament decided that. |
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Post by Vinny on Dec 10, 2022 10:28:41 GMT
Yes, the once in a generation vote to stay in the EEC was democratic. But the EEC wasn't the EU.
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Post by Einhorn on Dec 10, 2022 11:43:12 GMT
This is an attempt to stop the new thread re the 2016 referendum going off on a tangent. It has been pointed out that the High Court has decided that the 2016 referendum was undemocratic, but could not be set aside because it was not binding on the government. Believing attack is the best form of defence, some Brexiters have decided to make the 1975 referendum the main issue. Let's discuss that here, instead. Was the 1975 referendum democratic? Both the 2016 and 1975 referendums were democratic - Parliament decided that. The 2016 referendum wasn't democratic. It would have been set aside for not being democratic if it had not been advisory. You're an august and venerable old gent Doc, but you ain't no High Court judge. We're still waiting for a democratic expression of the will of the people. The 2019 election doen't count. More people voted for parties that supported a second referendum than voted for Johnson. And many Remainers preferred to have Johnson than comrade Corbyn. Throw in the FPTP system, and you've got nothing at all. |
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Post by Einhorn on Dec 10, 2022 11:44:07 GMT
Yes, the once in a generation vote to stay in the EEC was democratic. But the EEC wasn't the EU. You have me on block but you can still see my threads? |
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Post by Pacifico on Dec 10, 2022 11:49:25 GMT
Both the 2016 and 1975 referendums were democratic - Parliament decided that. The 2016 referendum wasn't democratic. It would have been set aside for not being democratic if it had not been advisory. You're an august and venerable old gent Doc, but you ain't no High Court judge. We're still waiting for a democratic expression of the will of the people. The 2019 election doen't count. More people voted for parties that supported a second referendum than voted for Johnson. And many Remainers preferred to have Johnson than comrade Corbyn. Throw in the FPTP system, and you've got nothing at all. Parliament decides what is democratic. |
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Post by Einhorn on Dec 10, 2022 11:51:40 GMT
The 2016 referendum wasn't democratic. It would have been set aside for not being democratic if it had not been advisory. You're an august and venerable old gent Doc, but you ain't no High Court judge. We're still waiting for a democratic expression of the will of the people. The 2019 election doen't count. More people voted for parties that supported a second referendum than voted for Johnson. And many Remainers preferred to have Johnson than comrade Corbyn. Throw in the FPTP system, and you've got nothing at all. Parliament decides what is democratic. In which case, Parliament's decision 'to ignore the will of the people' was not undemocratic. |
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Post by Pacifico on Dec 10, 2022 11:53:07 GMT
Parliament decides what is democratic. In which case, Parliament's decision 'to ignore the will of the people' was not undemocratic. Parliament disagreed with you. |
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Post by Einhorn on Dec 10, 2022 11:54:09 GMT
In which case, Parliament's decision 'to ignore the will of the people' was not undemocratic. Parliament disagreed with you. But those who say that Parliament acted undemocratically prior to 2019 are wrong, right? |
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Post by Pacifico on Dec 10, 2022 11:58:25 GMT
Parliament disagreed with you. But those who say that Parliament acted undemocratically prior to 2019 are wrong, right? Undemocratically about what?. |
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