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Post by dappy on Dec 8, 2022 15:43:26 GMT
She is being sentenced today having pleaded guilty to death by careless driving (note not dangerous driving). Both defence and prosecution counsels have accepted that it was close to the threshold for the more serious charge of dangerous driving. Sacoolas is being sentenced remotely - so hard to see how any sentence could be enforced.
The evidence shows that she is an American citizen who drove out of her base for a short distance with her kids in the car - used to driving on the US side of the road she made a tragic mistake with no intent whatsoever. At the brow of a hill she collided with the entirely innocent Harry Dunn. She was distraught at the scene, cooperated at the scene and there was no evidence of speeding, drink, drugs etc. It was a terrible mistake, the consequences of which were catastrophic for Harry Dunn and his family.
Ignoring the diplomatic immunity complication of this for a moment and assuming this had just been an ordinary US citizen, what do you think should be the appropriate punishment. Specifically what would be the point of a jail sentence in response to a mistake? Would a suspended sentence or simply a community order be more appropriate in these circumstances?
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Post by Steve on Dec 8, 2022 15:49:37 GMT
6 months jail would be my choice
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Post by Vinny on Dec 8, 2022 15:56:38 GMT
If she'd stayed at the scene, stayed in this country and taken it on the chin she'd be in far less bother, but she like a coward fled back to the USA.
Obviously she didn't mean to kill him, but she did.
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Post by patman post on Dec 8, 2022 16:00:39 GMT
It seems to me that the subsequent story has blown the offence up out of all proportion.
This was careless driving with a tragic consequence. Because of that consequence, Sacoolas should get the maximum, or near maximum punishment the law sets out which, I understand, is a fine of up to £5,000 and disqualification from driving, though that would only be applicable to where UK driving licence is valid. It doesn't appear that Sacoolas, was guilty of dangerous driving — ie, it was not intentional such as in: Racing or competitive driving Aggressive driving Ignoring road signs and traffic lights Driving under the influence of alcohol or drugs Driving in an unfit state, such as while tired, injured, or on medication Avoidably distracted (eg, by holding and using a phone) Using a defective vehicle Driving while uninsured or disqualified
For dangerous driving the penalty could be imprisonment, and up to 2 years ban, and 11 points on the licence...
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Post by dappy on Dec 8, 2022 16:01:20 GMT
She did stay at the scene and assisted the police at the scene.
Only afterwards did US Government get involved.
But lets talk about the wider principle.
What should the sentence be for what was accepted to be a mistake, for which remorse was shown and there were no adverse factors (drink, drugs, speed, failure to stop, not giving a damn). Should that person go to jail for a mistake (with terrible consequences) . If so for what purpose.
Patman, the maximum sentence for this offence (accepted by bth sides as being very close to the dangerous driving threshhold) is five years prison
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Post by Steve on Dec 8, 2022 16:04:55 GMT
The starting point for a sentence for death by careless driving is apparently 15 months
There is some mitigation because she was American not used to driving on the left, has shown contrition and plead guilty but also aggravation in refusing to stand trial in the UK
That's how I get to 6 months
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Post by Dan Dare on Dec 8, 2022 16:08:21 GMT
Just watched last night an episode of '24 Hours in police custody' in which a young family man interrupted two thugs attempting a break-in at his home. They fled on a motor-bike (stolen) and he chased after them in his car.
Long story short and a collision later the two thugs ended up in hospital. Nothing life threatening and both were later given suspended sentences.
The homeowner received a 22-month jail sentence for causing injury through dangerous driving but the real offence was 'taking the law into his own hands'. The police and the judiciary won't have any of that no matter how useless the police are in dealing with burglaries and burglars.
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Post by Steve on Dec 8, 2022 16:12:19 GMT
Lucky lady. 8 months suspended for 12 months
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Post by dappy on Dec 8, 2022 16:14:11 GMT
Think that is a different case Dan and without knowing the details different to judge. I guess the principle was human life is more important than property, if the homeowner chased the motorbike pretty good chance he put other road users at risk (unlikely they all stuck to the speed limit) and anyway he has no right in a car to ram a motorbike (if that is what he did). If you have the case history, perhaps you could post a link so we can understand what happened.
Meanwhile lets focus on the principle in this case. If there are no aggregating factors and this was judged to be just a terrible mistake, should the driver be jailed because someone died as a result of her genuine mistake? If so to what purpose?
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Post by dappy on Dec 8, 2022 16:16:48 GMT
Incidentally Sacoolas has been sentenced to eight months SUSPENDED for 12 months and disqualified for 12 months. As she is unlikely to return to the UK all a bit notional.
But in principle ignoring the international politics, a suspended sentence for this specific offence seems proportionate.
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Post by Steve on Dec 8, 2022 16:18:12 GMT
We've long had criminal responsibility for negligence death and most civilised countries do same.
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Post by Steve on Dec 8, 2022 16:20:19 GMT
The sentence does not match the reported comments of the judge that this 'was not far short of deliberate dangerous driving'
I don't support that comemnt but once made surely the judge has to give a commensurate sentence.
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Post by Dan Dare on Dec 8, 2022 16:22:14 GMT
I've no intention of stepping on the dappy-go-round for another pointless 'discussion' with you. I was merely highlighting the completely different attitude of 'the law' vis-a-vis these sets of offenders. Kill an innocent young man through negligent driving and you get off with a slap on the wrist. Injure a couple of career criminals and spend 22 months in jail, the prospect of which - including losing their house - caused the wife to lose her unborn baby.
If you need more background detail you know how to find C4 I'm sure.
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Post by dappy on Dec 8, 2022 16:23:11 GMT
Could you answer the question then Steve.
If it accepted that a driver A error was responsible for a serious accident in which another driver B died but where driver A was not drunk, no drugs no speeding, showed remorse and cooperated, what do you think we the State would gain by imprisoning this driver A?
Dan you post your interpretation of another case but haven't posted the link or identified the case, so quite hard for anyone to comment objectively.
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Post by Handyman on Dec 8, 2022 16:29:14 GMT
Just watched last night an episode of '24 Hours in police custody' in which a young family man interrupted two thugs attempting a break-in at his home. They fled on a motor-bike (stolen) and he chased after them in his car. Long story short and a collision later the two thugs ended up in hospital. Nothing life threatening and both were later given suspended sentences. The homeowner received a 22-month jail sentence for causing injury through dangerous driving but the real offence was 'taking the law into his own hands'. The police and the judiciary won't have any of that no matter how useless the police are in dealing with burglaries and burglars. I can fully understand the home owner chasing the burglars angry as hell, but getting involved in vehicle chase no , he put himself and others at risk, the CPS decide who is charged and with what not the Police, but I do think his sentence was harsh There was a case in the news yesterday a Police Officer was on trial for causing death by dangerous two people killed, if I recall correctly a child and mother , the Officer was chasing a stolen car the driver of the stolen car mounted the pavement and mowed them down, not the Police Officer did not hit them or collide with the stolen car The CPS decided to charge the Officer , Jury acquitted the Officer |
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