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Post by Einhorn on Dec 16, 2022 17:27:34 GMT
Never has someone who needs lemonade, been so desperately short of lemons. May I briefly ask what that's supposed to mean, Mags?
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Post by Toreador on Dec 16, 2022 17:59:41 GMT
However many times, Dan asks the same question, it has already ben answered for him - perhaps not the answer he would like but the answer nonetheless. I think we can all work out very easily why Dan would like knowledge of the holocaust and its lessons for today to be suppressed. I think we have all learned to give Dan's straw man suspicions the lack of attention they deserve. So what determines what is taught in school, who determines it and on what grounds? I started school in 1941 but it wasn't probaly until around 1945 that I learned about events called Boer Wars. Though that war was on a much smaller scale, atrocities and deaths may well have been proportionate. Thousands of Boers and blacks died in concentration camps from disease and starvation on the orders of top ranking military persdonnel. Similarly, as someone has pointed out, American native population was reduced by millions due to European occupation, particularly as a result of purposely spreading deadly diseases. There are plenty more cases including one I remember in my early teens, the ethnic cleansing of Arabs by David Ben Gurion and his henchmen. Perhaps you might want to reflect on why these atrocities are not immortalised in quite the same way as the holocaust and also reflect on the Russian death toll in WW2.
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Post by jeg er on Dec 16, 2022 18:15:28 GMT
I read an article some time ago (at least 3 or 4 months ago). It discussed the results of polls taken on national views of referendums. Understandably, I suppose, referendums were least popular in the UK, with the public being very decidedly against them (I don't remember the exact percentage, but it was very significant). Referendums are at the heart of populism. Populism is obviously still a thing in Italy and Hungary, but its influence is fading elsewhere. referendums are not necessarily indicative of populism. switzerland
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Post by Einhorn on Dec 16, 2022 18:18:00 GMT
I read an article some time ago (at least 3 or 4 months ago). It discussed the results of polls taken on national views of referendums. Understandably, I suppose, referendums were least popular in the UK, with the public being very decidedly against them (I don't remember the exact percentage, but it was very significant). Referendums are at the heart of populism. Populism is obviously still a thing in Italy and Hungary, but its influence is fading elsewhere. referendums are not necessarily indicative of populism. switzerland They seem to be a mainstay of the local populists' demands.
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Post by Dan Dare on Dec 16, 2022 20:58:22 GMT
There is one aspect to this question that has not emerged so far: how the current cult of Holocaustiana in western societies relates to the state of Israel and serves to further its interests. I'll post a piece tomorrow that should help to shed some light on this matter.
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Post by Dan Dare on Dec 16, 2022 21:08:25 GMT
... There are plenty more cases including one I remember in my early teens, the ethnic cleansing of Arabs by David Ben Gurion and his henchmen. Perhaps you might want to reflect on why these atrocities are not immortalised in quite the same way as the holocaust and also reflect on the Russian death toll in WW2. Do you remember the case of James Caunt, the proprietor and editor of the Morecambe and Heysham Visitor who a jury took just 13 minutes to acquit of seditious libel in connection with allegedly anti-Semitic remarks he published after the mutilation and murder of two British sergeants in Palestine?
If not, it could be worth a google.
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Post by Toreador on Dec 16, 2022 21:52:57 GMT
... There are plenty more cases including one I remember in my early teens, the ethnic cleansing of Arabs by David Ben Gurion and his henchmen. Perhaps you might want to reflect on why these atrocities are not immortalised in quite the same way as the holocaust and also reflect on the Russian death toll in WW2. Do you remember the case of James Caunt, the proprietor and editor of the Morecambe and Heysham Visitor who a jury took just 13 minutes to acquit of seditious libel in connection with allegedly anti-Semitic remarks he published after the mutilation and murder of two British sergeants in Palestine?
If not, it could be worth a google.
I've had a look and don't specifically remember the Caunt court case but though I was ony 10 in 1947 BBC radio news was a must in most houses even for kids, however I remember items on the anti-semitic riots.
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Post by Dan Dare on Dec 16, 2022 21:59:13 GMT
Yes. Anti-semitism was a major feature of late 1940s Britain on account of the activities of Jewish terrorists in Palestine, the King David Hotel atrocity being in particular a major incident. It's all largely forgotten these days and rarely mentioned except amongst the cognoscenti.
A large majority of the MPs in all mainstream parties are these days members of their parties' 'Friends of Israel' clubs so all appears to be forgiven and forgotten.
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Post by Dan Dare on Dec 17, 2022 7:28:34 GMT
Let’s focus now on one specific case of Holocaust memorialisation in which both Jewish lobbying and financial support for political purposes played a crucial role: the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum (USHMM) in Washington DC. In many important respects the USHMM has become the template for national Holocaust memorials that have sprung up since like kudzu in western capitals, including the one promised for the UK. Although that project is temporarily on hold while the government figures out how to circumvent some awkward 1900s-era legislation that stands athwart its path. So what’s the story with the USHMM? What we will be examining next is the nexus of Jewish pressure group activity with political contributions (including, but not limited to, financial) to the incumbent ruling party (it doesn’t matter which). The process is well-documented in the US and although the same or very similar goes on in Britain, the details are much murkier. The following then is an extended extract from JJ Goldberg’s Jewish Power: Inside the American Jewish Establishment, so we can take this as coming more or less directly from the horse’s mouth. The story begins in 1974 with the adoption by the National Jewish Community Relations Advisory Council (NCRAC) to adopt “…formal guidelines for Holocaust commemoration, directing Jewish organizations to sponsor annual Holocaust Day observances in every city, to press for Holocaust education in the schools, and to put the Holocaust high on the agenda of all Jewish-Christian dialogue.” Goldberg then continues:
Quite. Whether it wanted one or not is anther matter entirely.
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Post by patman post on Dec 17, 2022 13:24:10 GMT
Seems to me that most of the WWII allies' main European political actors, and their associates, kept the lid on most of what they knew about the holocaust at the time and didn't act on, until more full accounts came out in the 1990's. Once gruesome events were known in more detail, and victims were allowed to recount their experiences, the demand for more information grew. Even the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) had tried to conceal its failures during World War II and the Holocaust. But it finally opened its archives to researchers some five decades after the end of the war. Michael Bard in his book "Forgotten victims — The Abandonment of Americans in Hitler's Camps" cites the headlines of some clippings from US press reports that show people in the US were aware of what was happening:
• "25,000 Jews Seized In Southern France," (New York Times, August 28, 1942);
- "Jewish Children Interned by Vichy" (Chicago Sun, August 31, 1942);
- "35,000 Jews Executed in Five Polish Towns," (New York Herald Tribune, March 21, 1943);
- "50,000 Jews Put In Nazi Prison 'Die Like Flies,'" (Washington Times Herald, September 3, 1943);
- "50,000 Jews Dying In Nazi Fortress," (New York Times, September 3, 1943);
- "Nazi Slayings Near 250,000," (Baltimore Sun, September 22, 1943);
- "Poles Report Nazis Slay 10,000 Daily," (Washington Post, March 22, 1944);
- "1,000,000 Hungarian Jews Face Massacre, Hull Says," (Chicago Sun, July 15, 1944).
But it seems probably that the dissemination of this info was not encouraged in Europe. It's been said since, that British Foreign Office officials didn’t believe stories about the use of gas chambers and queried the advantage of a gas chamber over a machine gun or starving people. Some doubted the reliability of the reports of gas chambers because they tended to come from Jewish sources.
All very good reasons for keeping the detailed info under wraps until the principals involved had departed. And possibly why some others now want it all to be known...
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Post by Dan Dare on Dec 17, 2022 21:42:36 GMT
But the detailed info was not kept 'under wraps'. Much of it emerged during the Nuremberg and Belsen Trials and what didn't emerge then certainly came to light at the Auschwitz trials in Frankfurt in 1961. However the question 'What did we know then and Why Didn't we do more About It' is of central importance in considering why the Holocaust has now become such a permanent fixture of western culture. There is an element of punishment at the root of it, as exemplified by much of the architecture which has become associated with Holocaust Memorialisation. The chosen design for the UKNHM adjacent to the Houses of Parliament serves to make the point.
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Post by jeg er on Dec 18, 2022 10:29:15 GMT
But the detailed info was not kept 'under wraps'. Much of it emerged during the Nuremberg and Belsen Trials and what didn't emerge then certainly came to light at the Auschwitz trials in Frankfurt in 1961. However the question 'What did we know then and Why Didn't we do more About It' is of central importance in considering why the Holocaust has now become such a permanent fixture of western culture. There is an element of punishment at the root of it, as exemplified by much of the architecture which has become associated with Holocaust Memorialisation. The chosen design for the UKNHM adjacent to the Houses of Parliament serves to make the point. How does that memorial represent 'punishment'?
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Post by Einhorn on Dec 18, 2022 23:02:25 GMT
But the detailed info was not kept 'under wraps'. Much of it emerged during the Nuremberg and Belsen Trials and what didn't emerge then certainly came to light at the Auschwitz trials in Frankfurt in 1961. However the question 'What did we know then and Why Didn't we do more About It' is of central importance in considering why the Holocaust has now become such a permanent fixture of western culture. There is an element of punishment at the root of it, as exemplified by much of the architecture which has become associated with Holocaust Memorialisation. The chosen design for the UKNHM adjacent to the Houses of Parliament serves to make the point. How does that memorial represent 'punishment'? I'd also like to know how that is a 'punishment'. If it's not straying too far off topic, I'm also interested to know what punishment you think was fitting for the perpetrators of these crimes.
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Post by bancroft on Dec 19, 2022 14:33:27 GMT
We are entitled to ask ourselves why this dramatic turn of events has come about. How did it happen, what is it for, who or what is behind it and - perhaps the key question - cui bono? I think the central question here is whether the present interest in the H has occurred organically, or whether is is occurring as the result of external agency. My own view tends towards the latter. Probably the Tory party needed money and a Jewish group was willing to donate providing the Government would make a public sign they are supportive of Jewish people.
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Post by Handyman on Dec 19, 2022 20:31:19 GMT
But the detailed info was not kept 'under wraps'. Much of it emerged during the Nuremberg and Belsen Trials and what didn't emerge then certainly came to light at the Auschwitz trials in Frankfurt in 1961. However the question 'What did we know then and Why Didn't we do more About It' is of central importance in considering why the Holocaust has now become such a permanent fixture of western culture. There is an element of punishment at the root of it, as exemplified by much of the architecture which has become associated with Holocaust Memorialisation. The chosen design for the UKNHM adjacent to the Houses of Parliament serves to make the point. Our Government knew what the Nazi's were doing very early on in the war the Poles and Russians told us, in 1942 the PM addressed the House of Commons telling the House what they were doing
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