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Post by patman post on Sept 25, 2024 19:50:38 GMT
Farce is an acceptable and enjoyable strand of theatre that’s been staged over many years and also filmed and presented on TV. Why take against it now…? Farce ..an event or situation that is absurd or disorganized. However the new production of Tom Jones does have at least one of those farcical elements “a comic dramatic work using buffoonery and horseplay and typically including crude characterization and ludicrously improbable situations.Exactly. Plus it’s not a depiction of an actual historical character. It’s no more real than the Pickwick Papers. If you want the original, and earlier productions of scripts adapted from Henry Fielding’s created character are still available… |
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Post by Bentley on Sept 25, 2024 20:03:19 GMT
Farce ..an event or situation that is absurd or disorganized. However the new production of Tom Jones does have at least one of those farcical elements “a comic dramatic work using buffoonery and horseplay and typically including crude characterization and ludicrously improbable situations.Exactly. Plus it’s not a depiction of an actual historical character. It’s no more real than the Pickwick Papers. If you want the original, and earlier productions of scripts adapted from Henry Fielding’s created character are still available… It isn’t marketed as a farce or a farcical production . It just as one farcical , pointless piece of miscasting for the purposes of ‘ diversity ‘. One that would not be accept if it were a black character rewritten as a white character . |
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Post by patman post on Sept 25, 2024 20:25:41 GMT
Exactly. Plus it’s not a depiction of an actual historical character. It’s no more real than the Pickwick Papers. If you want the original, and earlier productions of scripts adapted from Henry Fielding’s created character are still available… It isn’t marketed as a farce or a farcical production . It just as one farcical , pointless piece of miscasting for the purposes of ‘ diversity ‘. One that would not be accept if it were a black character rewritten as a white character . How do you know that? You haven’t investigated what this production has been marketed as. I doubt you even knew of it before this thread. I bet you, that apart from British opera, no mainstream entertainment activity intentionally stages unpopular loss-making productions — admittedly there are probably now more black opera singers than you’re comfortable with… |
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Post by Bentley on Sept 25, 2024 20:36:04 GMT
It isn’t marketed as a farce or a farcical production . It just as one farcical , pointless piece of miscasting for the purposes of ‘ diversity ‘. One that would not be accept if it were a black character rewritten as a white character . How do you know that? You haven’t investigated what this production has been marketed as. I doubt you even knew of it before this thread. I bet you, that apart from British opera, no mainstream entertainment activity intentionally stages unpopular loss-making productions — admittedly there are probably now more black opera singers than you’re comfortable with… The black and white minstrel show was very popular a few years ago. Would you be comfortable with a revival ? |
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Post by Dogburger on Sept 25, 2024 20:46:12 GMT
The whole idea of casting black people in white roles or visa versa is to remove racial prejudice not to enhance it . Its early days but surely we all want to arrive at the time when nobody notices who is 'playing' who as long as they are making a decent job of it. Is it just a colour thing or are we going to say Aussies can't play Scots , or Englishmen embarrassing themselves trying to speak with an American accent ? I think race reversed casting would be pushing their luck when playing living or recently deceased people but other than that I dont see the problem But it does not remove it it does enhance it as it is presumed that the role went not to the best actor for the role but was positive action. It would be ridiculous having Matt Damon playing Nelson Mandela or David Tennant playing Bernie Grant. Whether we like it or not colour changes the dynamics of any situation and in a historical or even a fictional setting the unspoken dynamics are necessary for the role to work and often if one introduces those dynamics where they did not exist it creates an undercurrent that was never there. If Matt Damon was playing Nelson Mandela in a court scene then it would be hard to recreate the unspoken racial antipathy that existed even worse if a black actor was playing the white prosecutor the whole thing would be surreal and contextually all at sea. If we cannot get the race of an actor right for a production what is the point in trying to create the visual facade of time and location. Why does the audince have to suspend belief in one area but is not expected to in another. I thought all of that ended with the ridiculous sight of Elizabeth Taylor in a wheelchair for the Little Foxes. The presence of a wheelchair pusher would change the dynamics of any play. I did say they would be pushing their luck if playing recently deceased people . That for me would mean people in living memory and yes the Mandela story is one that exists because of colour so it would have two reasons to have a Black actor . Then again Patrick Stewart once famously played Othello with all the white characters being played by black actors ,I believe it was the first case of race reverse casting . Likewise you could have Matt Damon playing Mandela , maybe Jennifer Anniston as Winnie and all his oppressors cast as black . Not my cup of tea but its a thought . |
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Post by patman post on Sept 25, 2024 20:52:57 GMT
How do you know that? You haven’t investigated what this production has been marketed as. I doubt you even knew of it before this thread. I bet you, that apart from British opera, no mainstream entertainment activity intentionally stages unpopular loss-making productions — admittedly there are probably now more black opera singers than you’re comfortable with… The black and white minstrel show was very popular a few years ago. Would you be comfortable with a revival ? Does would I be comfortable with a what-if matter? I’m not complaining about any current or proposed legit production. Cock fighting, dog fighting and bare knuckle prize fighting haven’t gone away. I’m against them here. But, like the Black and White Minstrels, they’re unlikely to return to the mainstream… |
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Post by Bentley on Sept 25, 2024 21:05:39 GMT
The black and white minstrel show was very popular a few years ago. Would you be comfortable with a revival ? Does would I be comfortable with a what-if matter? I’m not complaining about any current or proposed legit production. Cock fighting, dog fighting and bare knuckle prize fighting haven’t gone away. I’m against them here. But, like the Black and White Minstrels, they’re unlikely to return to the mainstream… Unlikely because many would be uncomfortable with it . Not you though …it’s all harmless fun with elements of “comic dramatic work using buffoonery and horseplay and typically including crude characterization and ludicrously improbable situations.”...of which you applaud apparently |
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Post by sandypine on Sept 25, 2024 21:18:42 GMT
But it does not remove it it does enhance it as it is presumed that the role went not to the best actor for the role but was positive action. It would be ridiculous having Matt Damon playing Nelson Mandela or David Tennant playing Bernie Grant. Whether we like it or not colour changes the dynamics of any situation and in a historical or even a fictional setting the unspoken dynamics are necessary for the role to work and often if one introduces those dynamics where they did not exist it creates an undercurrent that was never there. If Matt Damon was playing Nelson Mandela in a court scene then it would be hard to recreate the unspoken racial antipathy that existed even worse if a black actor was playing the white prosecutor the whole thing would be surreal and contextually all at sea. If we cannot get the race of an actor right for a production what is the point in trying to create the visual facade of time and location. Why does the audince have to suspend belief in one area but is not expected to in another. I thought all of that ended with the ridiculous sight of Elizabeth Taylor in a wheelchair for the Little Foxes. The presence of a wheelchair pusher would change the dynamics of any play. I did say they would be pushing their luck if playing recently deceased people . That for me would mean people in living memory and yes the Mandela story is one that exists because of colour so it would have two reasons to have a Black actor . Then again Patrick Stewart once famously played Othello with all the white characters being played by black actors ,I believe it was the first case of race reverse casting . Likewise you could have Matt Damon playing Mandela , maybe Jennifer Anniston as Winnie and all his oppressors cast as black . Not my cup of tea but its a thought . I have no objection to that sort of thing, that seems like perfectly legitimate dramatic licence to turn the dynamics around. They are however recognising that dynamics exist but trying to cast so that people ignore those dynamics is realistically not going to work and one suspects ulterior motives as opposed to colour blind casting. Is there a cut off point in history where 'recent' is not recent and race can be ignored. I tend to think not. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Sept 26, 2024 10:39:27 GMT
All drama requires suspension of belief, otherwise the illusion is broken.
It's a very difficult trick to pull off however when the illusion requires well-known historical facts to be disregarded or ignored, especially when there is no good and cogent reason for that additional layer of deception.
For that to work with an audience that does not need to be pandered to that reason needs to be something other and more rational than a bureaucratic need to satisfy a diversity diktat.
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ginnyg2
Full Member
Don't blame me - I voted for someone else.
Posts: 408
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Post by ginnyg2 on Sept 26, 2024 12:48:42 GMT
I don't see a problem with fictional characters like say Doctor Who or James Bond, even Sherlock Holmes being played by actors of a different skin colour than traditionally. Black actors playing real life people who were well documented as being white is another matter entirely. And it works both ways. Imagine the uproar amongst the Muslim community if Kevin Bacon were to be cast as Mohammed.
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Post by Dogburger on Sept 26, 2024 18:23:38 GMT
I don't see a problem with fictional characters like say Doctor Who or James Bond, even Sherlock Holmes being played by actors of a different skin colour than traditionally. Black actors playing real life people who were well documented as being white is another matter entirely. And it works both ways. Imagine the uproar amongst the Muslim community if Kevin Bacon were to be cast as Mohammed. I think there would be uproar in the Muslim community if a Muslim played Mohammed .Depicting the prophet is frowned upon . |
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Post by piglet on Sept 27, 2024 8:49:08 GMT
Russia claimed that Shakespeare was Russian, as other and other countries have claimed him. Many years ago i went to a production of a shakespeare play, i cant remember which one at the Royal Shakespeare company in Stratford, it was a black production, you had to be a black actor.
It made no difference.
To be short, Russia was envious, Shakespeare was obviously far above anything they could produce, indeed he was far above all, and for ever more. Was only using black actors an act of envy? Is substituting black for white envy?
As big brother would say, you decide.
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Post by sandypine on Sept 27, 2024 9:02:57 GMT
Russia claimed that Shakespeare was Russian, as other and other countries have claimed him. Many years ago i went to a production of a shakespeare play, i cant remember which one at the Royal Shakespeare company in Stratford, it was a black production, you had to be a black actor. It made no difference. To be short, Russia was envious, Shakespeare was obviously far above anything they could produce, indeed he was far above all, and for ever more. Was only using black actors an act of envy? Is substituting black for white envy? As big brother would say, you decide. If making a conscious decision to only use black actors in a production is OK why would it be wrong to make a conscious decision to use only white actors? Both productions are using race in the deciding factor in casting. As an aside the latter would be more historically accurate. The law has already decided but it does not seem to be applied in any sort of equitable fashion. |
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