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Post by see2 on Sept 7, 2024 19:33:44 GMT
A lack of finances as a healthy economy was left to struggle. A decade of austerity is the clue. But none of that changed the terms of the contracts that Labour signed. You seem to be a bit slow, what changed was the finances available. |
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Post by Bentley on Sept 7, 2024 20:17:47 GMT
Nope. There was a need to train skilled and professional people in order to allow for expansion . Yes there was and Blair was doing both. But it does take time to train people from scratch. Immigration was one of his answers to the almighty mess he inherited from the Tories.. He very early on increased the training of nurses and doctors followed by the dual approach with teachers where he gave financial encouragement to experienced teachers to return to the schools while also opening more opportunities for teacher training. No he wasn’t . The world isn’t just about nurses and doctors .GOOD Apprenticeships for construction workers , factory technicians and other skills were like hens teeth after about 1980. They never improved with Blair. Also Blair was pre occupied with getting kids into university rather than vocational training. |
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Post by Pacifico on Sept 7, 2024 21:25:30 GMT
But none of that changed the terms of the contracts that Labour signed. You seem to be a bit slow, what changed was the finances available. How did a change in finances make the deal any better or not? - the costs of the deal remained the same. If I contract a guy to change a lightbulb for a £100, my personal finances do not determine whether that is a good deal or not. |
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Post by sandypine on Sept 8, 2024 7:55:16 GMT
Indeed but in the main that is not what we got as the depression of the low skilled wages sector bears witness to as a continuous process from about 2000. If one goes to the supermarket and eschews home grown produce then eventually one loses the capability to grow ones own. Educashun was the watchword thrice delivered but it was overall the wrong sort. I have never seen a list of the trained, educated, skilled, professional people who entered the country around 2004/5, have you? Proof of your comment on education would be helpful. Did you not say there was a skills shortage, if there was a shortage we were not doing the right sort of education. The idea of government is to plan and organise for the future and regulate that which it plans. If the intent is to see the economy expand then plan to direct education to the sectors where that expansion is planned to occur. No point in allowing and encouraging civil engineers if your intent is to slow down the road construction programme, no point in training for oil and gas engineers if your intent is to shut that industry down. The private sector cannot foresee what government policy will be only government has that knowledge. The white heat of technology has always been in Labour sights it is just they seem to get it wrong and turn out too many zealots instead of practical experts. |
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Post by witchfinder on Sept 8, 2024 10:38:22 GMT
Education, training, choosing a vocation or skill, is ultimately a choice for the individual, its a "free market", not controled by any government.
Problems within our NHS because of this have existed ever since the NHS was created, the NHS saw skills shortages in nursing and ancillary posts in the 1950s, which were largely taken up by people from the Caribbean.
The 1960s saw the first noticeable shortage of GPs, partly because there were simply not enough, and partly because most newly trained GPs did not want to go to less pleasant areas to work, highly industrial areas etc.
The Health Minister at the time "Enoch Powell" partially solved this problem by recruiting doctors from the Sub Continent, India etc.
In 1997 Tony Blair, or any other Prime Minister for that matter, could not solve NHS staff shortages instantly. It take up to nine years to train some Consultant grade doctors, it takes several years to train Foundation grade doctors (Junior Doctors).
The Labour government at that time recruited both doctoes and nurses from overseas, mostly from The Commonwealth and Europe, but quite a lot of nurses came from The Philipines.
Without those recruits we would not have seen waiting lists or waiting times come down so dramatically as they did, or the improvements all across our NHS.
The town in which I live in rural North Yorkshire is something like 98% or 99% white ethnically, however suddenly in the past couple of years there is a noticeable increase in black people, and these young people are from West Africa and working in care homes, its the same all across the UK.
Until recent years the shortages in this area of employment were filled by Europeans, but of course the Brexiteers, insisted that all of the jobs which Europeans were doing, would be filled by British workers - NOT the case, as has now been proved.
Jobs in high skilled positions will never be always filled by British people, and jobs in the more unpleasant positions will also never be always filled by British workers. Whether it be Radiographers, Psychiatrists, Slaughterline Butchers or people to wipe the arses of those with dementia, we will always require workers from outside the country.
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Post by Rebirth on Sept 8, 2024 12:17:50 GMT
Hear that folks, we need more immigration for the NHS and will always need more. Let the insanity continue.
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Post by Bentley on Sept 8, 2024 12:29:28 GMT
Hear that folks, we need more immigration for the NHS and will always need more. Let the insanity continue. It’s the old chestnut firm the same old lefties who tell us we need immigrants because we are lazy . Same old lies , same old liars |
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Post by see2 on Sept 8, 2024 12:45:19 GMT
Yes there was and Blair was doing both. But it does take time to train people from scratch. Immigration was one of his answers to the almighty mess he inherited from the Tories.. He very early on increased the training of nurses and doctors followed by the dual approach with teachers where he gave financial encouragement to experienced teachers to return to the schools while also opening more opportunities for teacher training. No he wasn’t . The world isn’t just about nurses and doctors .GOOD Apprenticeships for construction workers , factory technicians and other skills were like hens teeth after about 1980. They never improved with Blair. Also Blair was pre occupied with getting kids into university rather than vocational training. Your fixed opinions never cease to amuse me. In a part of the thread about the NHS Blair addressing the shortages of Nurses and Doctors (and teachers) inherited from the Tories was relevant. Thatcher destroyed thousands of small and not so small businesses as she steadily pushed the numbers out of work up to nearly 4 million. Lost with those jobs were the apprenticeships and the opportunity to work in a skilled job. Leading many people like myself to leave skilled work and take up jobs that did not produce goods in industry. Blair found the best way he could for the country to pay its way, which was Financial Services. Along with the damage Thatcher did, she also introduced 'Self Employment', which had a devastating affect on apprenticeships in the building industry. Leading to a shortage of brickies, plasterers, painters, electricians and Plumbers. Blair was intent on getting the early start in education right, because a good basic education would lead to better outcomes later on. |
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Post by see2 on Sept 8, 2024 12:48:48 GMT
Hear that folks, we need more immigration for the NHS and will always need more. Let the insanity continue. It’s the old chestnut firm the same old lefties who tell us we need immigrants because we are lazy . Same old lies , same old liars The liars are the ones who choose to ignore the damage to the NHS done by Conservative governments and exacerbated by Brexit, and then choose denigration when some answers are found in immigration. |
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Post by see2 on Sept 8, 2024 12:57:44 GMT
I have never seen a list of the trained, educated, skilled, professional people who entered the country around 2004/5, have you? Proof of your comment on education would be helpful. Did you not say there was a skills shortage, if there was a shortage we were not doing the right sort of education. The idea of government is to plan and organise for the future and regulate that which it plans. If the intent is to see the economy expand then plan to direct education to the sectors where that expansion is planned to occur. No point in allowing and encouraging civil engineers if your intent is to slow down the road construction programme, no point in training for oil and gas engineers if your intent is to shut that industry down. The private sector cannot foresee what government policy will be only government has that knowledge. The white heat of technology has always been in Labour sights it is just they seem to get it wrong and turn out too many zealots instead of practical experts. I asked you a question which you have chosen to ignore. There was little point in doing a skilled apprenticeship at a time when there were no jobs for skilled people, thanks to Thatcher's corner shop ideology, i.e. don't make things just buy and sell things. This government has said it will increase businesses, jobs and opportunity. The 'White heat of industry' (Harold Wilson) was a financial encouragement to industrialists to build up their enterprises, industry did not respond. |
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Post by sandypine on Sept 8, 2024 13:19:54 GMT
Did you not say there was a skills shortage, if there was a shortage we were not doing the right sort of education. The idea of government is to plan and organise for the future and regulate that which it plans. If the intent is to see the economy expand then plan to direct education to the sectors where that expansion is planned to occur. No point in allowing and encouraging civil engineers if your intent is to slow down the road construction programme, no point in training for oil and gas engineers if your intent is to shut that industry down. The private sector cannot foresee what government policy will be only government has that knowledge. The white heat of technology has always been in Labour sights it is just they seem to get it wrong and turn out too many zealots instead of practical experts. I asked you a question which you have chosen to ignore. There was little point in doing a skilled apprenticeship at a time when there were no jobs for skilled people, thanks to Thatcher's corner shop ideology, i.e. don't make things just buy and sell things. This government has said it will increase businesses, jobs and opportunity. The 'White heat of industry' (Harold Wilson) was a financial encouragement to industrialists to build up their enterprises, industry did not respond. I did not ignore it, you said there was a skills shortage so the proof must be in your own possession unless there was no skills shortage. NewLabour came to power in 97 and organised the UK, at that point they were planning and should have regulated to ensure that the education they vaunted so much was suitable for what was to come. If we still had a skills shortage after 7 or 8 years of NewLabour something was not working effectively in government. I know one can lead a horse to water etc but it seems they could not even show the horse the right direction and encourage activity in the skills we lacked. Other countries were not so slow otherwise how could we get hold of the skills from abroad. Government cannot make industry do the right thing but it can encourage direction just as they are doing with netzero at the moment the only problem with that is it is a destructive process. If education was all, it should have been successful but it was not and encouraged all sorts of nonsense. |
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Post by see2 on Sept 8, 2024 13:26:17 GMT
You seem to be a bit slow, what changed was the finances available. How did a change in finances make the deal any better or not? - the costs of the deal remained the same. If I contract a guy to change a lightbulb for a £100, my personal finances do not determine whether that is a good deal or not. If the cash is available to pay the bills, then there is no problem. |
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Post by see2 on Sept 8, 2024 13:37:14 GMT
I asked you a question which you have chosen to ignore. There was little point in doing a skilled apprenticeship at a time when there were no jobs for skilled people, thanks to Thatcher's corner shop ideology, i.e. don't make things just buy and sell things. This government has said it will increase businesses, jobs and opportunity. The 'White heat of industry' (Harold Wilson) was a financial encouragement to industrialists to build up their enterprises, industry did not respond. I did not ignore it, you said there was a skills shortage so the proof must be in your own possession unless there was no skills shortage. NewLabour came to power in 97 and organised the UK, at that point they were planning and should have regulated to ensure that the education they vaunted so much was suitable for what was to come. If we still had a skills shortage after 7 or 8 years of NewLabour something was not working effectively in government. I know one can lead a horse to water etc but it seems they could not even show the horse the right direction and encourage activity in the skills we lacked. Other countries were not so slow otherwise how could we get hold of the skills from abroad. Government cannot make industry do the right thing but it can encourage direction just as they are doing with netzero at the moment the only problem with that is it is a destructive process. If education was all, it should have been successful but it was not and encouraged all sorts of nonsense. As I pointed out Thatcher altered the equation. Thousands of skilled and semi skilled jobs along with many trained and professional jobs disappeared along with the places of employment that were closed down. Most didn't just change direction, they closed down. Your approach is a totally over simplified one, driven by your desire to denigrate Blair and New Labour. You are unable to look at the Blair years objectively. |
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Post by sandypine on Sept 8, 2024 14:31:12 GMT
I did not ignore it, you said there was a skills shortage so the proof must be in your own possession unless there was no skills shortage. NewLabour came to power in 97 and organised the UK, at that point they were planning and should have regulated to ensure that the education they vaunted so much was suitable for what was to come. If we still had a skills shortage after 7 or 8 years of NewLabour something was not working effectively in government. I know one can lead a horse to water etc but it seems they could not even show the horse the right direction and encourage activity in the skills we lacked. Other countries were not so slow otherwise how could we get hold of the skills from abroad. Government cannot make industry do the right thing but it can encourage direction just as they are doing with netzero at the moment the only problem with that is it is a destructive process. If education was all, it should have been successful but it was not and encouraged all sorts of nonsense. As I pointed out Thatcher altered the equation. Thousands of skilled and semi skilled jobs along with many trained and professional jobs disappeared along with the places of employment that were closed down. Most didn't just change direction, they closed down. Your approach is a totally over simplified one, driven by your desire to denigrate Blair and New Labour. You are unable to look at the Blair years objectively. I accept that Thatcher had an effect, it is moot how much of course but Blair appears to have been worse. According to the FT under Thatcher manufacturing fell from 28 to 22% but under Blair it fell from 18 to 11% So it is clear that Blair stated his primary consideration was education (which involves all sorts of things not just school and university) but failed to provide the correct education to meet our skills shortages. Thatcher did not have vast levels of immigration to help her GDP, Blair did and still got it all wrong. |
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Post by Bentley on Sept 8, 2024 14:51:01 GMT
No he wasn’t . The world isn’t just about nurses and doctors .GOOD Apprenticeships for construction workers , factory technicians and other skills were like hens teeth after about 1980. They never improved with Blair. Also Blair was pre occupied with getting kids into university rather than vocational training. Your fixed opinions never cease to amuse me. In a part of the thread about the NHS Blair addressing the shortages of Nurses and Doctors (and teachers) inherited from the Tories was relevant. Thatcher destroyed thousands of small and not so small businesses as she steadily pushed the numbers out of work up to nearly 4 million. Lost with those jobs were the apprenticeships and the opportunity to work in a skilled job. Leading many people like myself to leave skilled work and take up jobs that did not produce goods in industry. Blair found the best way he could for the country to pay its way, which was Financial Services. Along with the damage Thatcher did, she also introduced 'Self Employment', which had a devastating affect on apprenticeships in the building industry. Leading to a shortage of brickies, plasterers, painters, electricians and Plumbers. Blair was intent on getting the early start in education right, because a good basic education would lead to better outcomes later on. It’s not fixed opinion it’s fact. Another fact is your constant projection. As I said , after 1980 decent apprenticeships were like hens teeth . Pull your tongue out of Blair’s arse for a moment you might have noticed Thatcher was PM a year before that . So I’m not just blaming him. The situation didn’t improve with Blair.” His best obviously wasn’t good enough. Thatcher didn’t invent ‘ self employment’ you moron . The fsct is that both Thatcher and Blair could have found some incentives for companies to provide good apprenticeships( the problem wasn’t only in the construction industry..which refutes your idiotic claim that it was Thatchers introduction of “ self employment..ffs) including more and better vocational colleges …but they didn’t . |
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