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Post by Pacifico on Dec 5, 2022 22:22:31 GMT
PR gives a disproportionate amount of power to minority parties Why would it be disproportionate? Surely it would be proportionate, isn't that the idea? I tend to agree with you - why shouldn't the smaller parties have some power. For example, in the last election run in the UK under PR the largest party was Reform who were also the largest party in the EU Parliament - surely they deserve a crack at power? |
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Post by andrewbrown on Dec 5, 2022 22:47:17 GMT
Indeed. I'm fairly confident that wouldn't happen in a GE, but if people voted for it...
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Post by Pacifico on Dec 6, 2022 7:43:12 GMT
Indeed. I'm fairly confident that wouldn't happen in a GE, but if people voted for it... Oh I dont know - all sorts of funny people get voted in under PR. PR has just delivered Italy its first fascist government since WW2 so I dont think that the UK is any different to any other country in Europe and claim that 'it couldn't happen here'. |
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Post by andrewbrown on Dec 6, 2022 8:23:35 GMT
Sounds like you want to limit who can win.
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Post by Pacifico on Dec 6, 2022 8:34:54 GMT
Sounds like you want to limit who can win. Not at all - I used to be in favour of FPTP as it gave a definitive result. However as we are in the scenario where it doesn't matter what major party you vote for you always get Labour then I have come around to the idea that change is only possible with PR. What I do think though is that those who advocate PR as a means for perpetual 'progressive' governments are kidding themselves and are in for a big shock should the system be introduced. |
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Post by Toreador on Dec 6, 2022 8:40:20 GMT
Sounds like you want to limit who can win. Not at all - I used to be in favour of FPTP as it gave a definitive result. However as we are in the scenario where it doesn't matter what major party you vote for you always get Labour then I have come around to the idea that change is only possible with PR. What I do think though is that those who advocate PR as a means for perpetual 'progressive' governments are kidding themselves and are in for a big shock should the system be introduced. It is the candidature system that is wrong. Too many candidates standing on nonsense platforms without a chance of ever winning anything but ridicule. |
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Post by see2 on Dec 6, 2022 8:46:38 GMT
Indeed. I'm fairly confident that wouldn't happen in a GE, but if people voted for it... Would you be ok with a right-wing extremist government if the country managed somehow to let one get elected? |
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Post by andrewbrown on Dec 6, 2022 11:19:15 GMT
Indeed. I'm fairly confident that wouldn't happen in a GE, but if people voted for it... Would you be ok with a right-wing extremist government if the country managed somehow to let one get elected? Yes. Of course I'd hate it though. Same as an extreme left government too. |
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Post by johnofgwent on Dec 6, 2022 11:46:32 GMT
Absolutely bang on the money. PR will see the end of strong majority governments, the birth of endless coalitions and gives small parties a disproportionate amount of power. FPTP may not be perfect but it's a damned sight better than PR. In view of recent years the myth of strong governments is obviously just that. A myth. One major gain from PR, apart from the obviously central reinforcement of democracy by ensuring that every vote counts and that outcomes genuinely reflect the will of the people, is that we'll never again get Tory governments with huge majorities elected by a minority of the electorate. And that itself would be a major plus, considering the damage they have done these past 12 years. PR is genuine democracy in the sense that it is genuine majority rule. Any government must be based on the majority will of the people. FPTP is not majority rule since it allows minorities to have unfettered rule over majorities and is thus an affront to democracy. Also an affront to democracy are safe seats, and votes that dont count. No, you’ll get Shyte labour running the roost unchallenged for the rest of time because all manner of lefty nutters and Marxist freaks including plenty willing to do violence to meet a political end will be welcomed as proppers up. The problem in wales is the d’Hondt formula they use which guarantees a spread across three or four parties where PROPER PR would actually empower the electorate by making them think their voice actually counted but would then return about 15 people in barking mad fringe parties at both extremes of the spectrum. This would be good because it would certainly make Labour go out and persuade the electorate (you should have seen Peter Hain running round like a frantic overstressed headless chicken in 2011 when he feared the BNP would get a seat in the Welsh assembly, it was utterly hilarious to watch) but the likely end game would be chaos. Which given the antics of the control freak running the shitshow now might be a good thing |
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Post by johnofgwent on Dec 6, 2022 11:52:24 GMT
Would you be ok with a right-wing extremist government if the country managed somehow to let one get elected? Yes. Of course I'd hate it though. Same as an extreme left government too. I think right now an extremist government of any kind outside the current shitshowers on BOTH sides of the commons who think they were born to rule would be quite useful. It would last about half as long as Liz Truss, of course, as either the army, MI5 ad MI6, or George Soros’s pals would bring it down, BUT It would demonstrate how badly the system is broken and the flushing of the existing benches into the sewers which would be needed in order to bring about that scenario would cause both mainstream parties to realise the time has come to reevaluate their relationship with the electorate or die. |
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Post by see2 on Dec 6, 2022 11:56:35 GMT
Would you be ok with a right-wing extremist government if the country managed somehow to let one get elected? Yes. Of course I'd hate it though. Same as an extreme left government too. Agreed on left and right extremists. BUT I most certainly do not want a right-wing government which would be the most likely to achieve power if matters got bad enough (that's when voters tend to move to the right) so I am never complacent when Righties are on the prowl. |
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Post by dodgydave on Dec 7, 2022 3:31:20 GMT
People on all sides should be careful with their rhetoric, including those on the left that need to stop demonising the Tories at every opportunity. The Deputy Leader of the Labour Party has been caught publicly using the phrase "Tory scum" three times now... yet she is still in the job. As for the far-right, this is my problem with PR, we will be giving these people a legitimate platform to spread hate. What would you call a party that: Is engaged in policies of making poor people poorer whilst protecting the wealthiest. Stole billions during Covid. Excuses bulling in its own ranks. Trashed the economy and is making the poorest pay for it. Allows the poorest to pay for the elites' education. Accuses Socialists of being Communists. Voted against feeding hungry kids.
Reduced UC for the poorest. Lie to the public, daily. Subsidise private business. Is selling off the NHS. Creates crisis's where there are none. Laugh at the people that support them. The Tories are worse than scum. You have just proved my point lol. You cannot make a sensible point without resorting to demonising your opponents!! Every one of your points is your biased version of the truth, phrased in a way to demonise. eg "reduced UC for the poorest", when we both the know the truth is they removed the temporary COVID increase. So just say they removed the temporary increase and argue they should have kept it longer because of the cost of living lol. I would agree with you if you put it like that!!! Phrasing your arguments like that may get you applauses from your own echo chamber, but I just find it pathetic and discount any reasonable point that you may be trying to make. |
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