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Post by Totheleft on Jul 11, 2024 7:56:32 GMT
What happened in stoke didn't they have 20 old councillors? Also did the labour party bring in a law saying political parties had to have a ethnic minority element? I will try and answer what I think you asked. The BNP went into decline because they were easy meat for a concerted attack by, call it what you will, the establishment for want of a better phrase and the MSN. People had turned to the BNP not becaseu they specifically liked the policies or the people but that there was a desperation to find something different from NewLabour which had by this time shown they supported, and enacted, mass migration to the UK. Labour had also deserted their core vote in the British working man who at that time could not consider Tory but sought an alternative. The history of the BNP, their leadership, their internal divisions and some policies meant that the MSN could portray them as unacceptable within a democratic/multicultural society and the reporting balanced on the truth and often turned to outright lies in order to discredit and break the party; and it largely worked because as I said teh BNP were easy meat with too many skeletons. The final nails in the coffin of the party were the court cases and then Equality Act which specifically denied the right of ethnic specific associations to be political parties. The same tactics are now being used against Reform, which has much less baggage and a much more difficult proposition to defeat. As well as Farage and others are well aware of the tactics that are used against them and are often very precise in how they speak. This of course does not stop the lies and the misrepresentation of what they say and stand for by both politicians and the MSN. Does that address your questions? EDIT I see Dan has beaten me to it. Yes the Equality act was what i was after Thank you |
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Post by Hutchyns on Jul 11, 2024 8:46:02 GMT
Thomas
And you can have that if you prefer, by changing the System. Our current system asks us to choose which individual we want to represent us in Parliament, hence if you're a Labour supporter, but consider the Labour candidate is lamentable and will be hopeless for the Constituency, whereas the Tory candidate appears hard working, honest and sensible (however unlikely that may be, lol) you might prefer him for the sake of your constituency and vote accordingly, yet still hope that Labour form the Government. But at the moment we vote for our choice of MP and not for our choice of governing Party.
If you want to throw politics over totally to the Parties and exclude individuals, there's nothing wrong with advocating for that, but the current system awards seats proportional to the votes an individual gets, and it did a perfect 100% accurate job of rewarding all the candidates who proved to be most popular in each of the 600 odd simultaneous elections held throughout the UK on July 4th.
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Post by johnofgwent on Jul 11, 2024 9:05:08 GMT
This ridiculous rhetoric needs to stop, they certainly do not have a mandate from the majority of the public, they are governing on a wing and a prayer. Marjorty means 52% + tell me when a government has reached that . If not no Government has had a Mandate Actually there have been many occasions since the beheading of Charles the first where the palace of westminster has seen government benches occupied by those chosen by over 50% of those entitled to vote. The problem of a government given the job by only a minority of those with a vote has only really become a problem since we gave the vote to the unwashed horde I’m all in favour of Starmer’s own view that taxpayers should have a vote. I say no P60 showing an income tax deduction, no bloody vote. |
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Post by johnofgwent on Jul 11, 2024 9:09:35 GMT
Only because the system is rigged Its not rigged at all everybody has the chance to vote for one person in there Consitancy. Eighty per cent of the constituencies are rigged by collusion between the government of the day and the boundary commission to ensure the majority by which the sitting MP is elected is so high that between sixty and eighty per cent of the electorate have no reasonable prospect of seeing their vote translate into their choice of candidate gaining power If you can’t see the problem with that then don’t whinge when those who hate Starmer string you up on the lamp pist next to the one they use to string him up. Ask Nicholas Ceaucescau. Oh wait …. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Jul 11, 2024 9:15:41 GMT
A coda on the Equality Act and the BNP:
Important to remember also that around the same time as the Equality Bill was being debated the Equality and Human Rights Commission launched its litigation to have the BNP remove the 'racially discriminatory‘ membership requirements from its constitution or face prosecution under the Race Relations Act.
It seems beyond belief that both the EHRC and the BNP would have been unaware that the forthcoming Equality Act would, in itself, perform what the EHRC was threatening to do. Which then begs the question as to why the EHRC initiated its action when it did and why the BNP went along with the charade.
The BNP finally threw in the towel after almost a year of legal wrangling and much unnecessary squandering of party funds. There is no doubt that this episode disheartened many of the party faithful and turned off many people who might otherwise have been tempted to vote BNP in 2010.
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Post by sandypine on Jul 11, 2024 9:24:10 GMT
A coda on the Equality Act and the BNP: Important to remember also that around the same time as the Equality Bill was being debated the Equality and Human Rights Commission launched its litigation to have the BNP remove the 'racially discriminatory‘ membership requirements from its constitution or face prosecution under the Race Relations Act. It seems beyond belief that both the EHRC and the BNP would have been unaware that the forthcoming Equality Act would, in itself, perform what the EHRC was threatening to do. Which then begs the question as to why the EHRC initiated its action when it did and why the BNP went along with the charade. The BNP finally threw in the towel after almost a year of legal wrangling and much unnecessary squandering of party funds. There is no doubt that this episode disheartened many of the party faithful and turned off many people who might otherwise have been tempted to vote BNP in 2010. If I recall much was made by the BNP that the Black Police Association had a similar Constitution in that White people could become associate members but could not vote. The BPA withdrew their membership requirements and replaced it with an 'under review' phrase. I check it from time to time and it is still not defined some 14 years later. The whole episode was clearly some form of anti democratic establishment stitch up and the tragedy is the BNP were clearly easy meat for this sort of selective legal action. |
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Post by dodgydave on Jul 12, 2024 0:52:53 GMT
Labour won fair and square. They have the most MPs, they get to form the government.
The bigger problem is they didn't win because of a positive vision, they won on the back of a lie.
You see when you blame everything on "Tory mismanagement", you imply that "good management" would have achieved a different result.
This is of course bollocks, the UK (and much of the West) have massive structural problems, and no party is willing to talk about them because the answers are too tough for the public to accept. We will now get 10 years of Labour blaming what they have "inherited" and achieving very little, after which time the public will demand "change" and the Tories will be back in power.
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Post by Orac on Jul 12, 2024 6:13:00 GMT
Good management would start solving the problems, but there is no prospect (yet) that the British public are yet aware enough to realise that they desperately need it. This shift could happen in the next few years though - I do think things are going to start visibly and dramatically falling apart in the next few years
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Post by steppenwolf on Jul 12, 2024 6:50:57 GMT
The country is certainly in a mess, but I don't think the mess can really be laid at the politicians' door. As I've said before, the civil service run the country and, for example, will certainly have known that the prisons were full. And the govt will also have known. The question is why did no one do anything about it?
IMO the answer is that the civil service had basically gone on strike and has done nothing for many years now - except try to block anything to do with Brexit, or Rwanda etc etc. Presumably they'll cooperate more with Labour because they agree more with their policies.
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Post by Dan Dare on Jul 12, 2024 8:50:54 GMT
The IPPR has confirmed that the turnout for the recent election (52%) was the lowest since universal suffrage was introduced in 1928.
Some mandate, eh.
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Post by dodgydave on Jul 12, 2024 12:39:22 GMT
Good management would start solving the problems, but there is no prospect (yet) that the British public are yet aware enough to realise that they desperately need it. This shift could happen in the next few years though - I do think things are going to start visibly and dramatically falling apart in the next few years Have you heard Labour mention any of the massive structural problems we face? All they did was blame the Tories. I heard Remain talk a little about it, but none of the other parties did. For example, can you really imagine Labour telling the public they need to take responsibility for their own health as our fat, lazy population is costing us all a fortune in healthcare and benefits? I would put my money on 10 years of hearing how the NHS is broken because of Tory cuts.... because that is what politicians do... blame other people. |
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Post by thomas on Jul 12, 2024 12:44:24 GMT
Thomas And you can have that if you prefer, by changing the System. Our current system asks us to choose which individual we want to represent us in Parliament, hence if you're a Labour supporter, but consider the Labour candidate is lamentable and will be hopeless for the Constituency, whereas the Tory candidate appears hard working, honest and sensible (however unlikely that may be, lol) you might prefer him for the sake of your constituency and vote accordingly, yet still hope that Labour form the Government. But at the moment we vote for our choice of MP and not for our choice of governing Party. If you want to throw politics over totally to the Parties and exclude individuals, there's nothing wrong with advocating for that, but the current system awards seats proportional to the votes an individual gets, and it did a perfect 100% accurate job of rewarding all the candidates who proved to be most popular in each of the 600 odd simultaneous elections held throughout the UK on July 4th. apologies Hutchyns , only just saw this. You say our current system. you mean Englands current system .England is the odd one out regarding Westminster not just in the uk but across Western Europe , if not a minority in the western world. Thats the starting point. The fptp system is a democratic anomaly . I know how fptp works , and im against it. No one , no one is going to convince me that a party getting a third of the vote and being rewarded with two thirds of seats is somehow acceptable in a modern western world democracy. |
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Post by thomas on Jul 12, 2024 12:55:25 GMT
Good management would start solving the problems, but there is no prospect (yet) that the British public are yet aware enough to realise that they desperately need it. This shift could happen in the next few years though - I do think things are going to start visibly and dramatically falling apart in the next few years Have you heard Labour mention any of the massive structural problems we face? All they did was blame the Tories. I heard Remain talk a little about it, but none of the other parties did. For example, can you really imagine Labour telling the public they need to take responsibility for their own health as our fat, lazy population is costing us all a fortune in healthcare and benefits? I would put my money on 10 years of hearing how the NHS is broken because of Tory cuts.... because that is what politicians do... blame other people. dont disagree with the thrust of your post about blaming others for lack of achievement while in government. Same as the tories blamed austerity on labour leaving no money , or labours pfi projects which crippled both the Scottish and English nhs services financially. Neither labour or conservative are going to change, why should they? Their failure is rewarded in a system that lets them win massive majorities on tiny fractions of the electorate. Rigged against any new challengers , or fresh ideas . We have approx 500/650 seats , that rarely change hands , and are inhabited by careerist benchwarmers , rather than beacons of intellectual and political light , and you wonder why each election the uk continues to sink into the gutter? Why should Joe Public take responsibility when the politicians won't? |
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Post by Dan Dare on Jul 12, 2024 12:56:19 GMT
"...No one , no one is going to convince me that a party getting a third of the vote and being rewarded with two thirds of seats is somehow acceptable in a modern western world democracy."
How about a situation where a party with 754,000 votes won nine seats while another party with over four million votes got just five?
Acceptable, or not?
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Post by thomas on Jul 12, 2024 13:07:02 GMT
"...No one , no one is going to convince me that a party getting a third of the vote and being rewarded with two thirds of seats is somehow acceptable in a modern western world democracy." How about a situation where a party with 754,000 votes won nine seats while another party with over four million votes got just five? Acceptable, or not? You aren't comparing like for like though are you dan? you are comparing a party which stands in one nation , with a party that stands multi nation uk wide. Surely the better example is the Lib Dem result , getting 71 seats on 12 % compared to reforms 5 seats on !4% . Both these parties stands uk wide. If you want to compare reform to snp , then the comparable results in scotland would be the snp on 30% compared to reform on 7% , and 9 seats and zero respectively. Do try and hold a sensible argument there's a good chap , if you want taken serious. |
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