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Post by Vinny on Jun 30, 2024 22:20:53 GMT
In addition to being the driving force behind the EU's swingeing tariff surcharges on EVs manufactured in China - which become effective EU-wide from next week - France has now delivered a double whammy by making any such vehicles ineligible for Government-funded bonus payments to buyers.
In order to qualify for the bonus the manufacturer had to submit an environmental 'dossier' for each model focusing on the manufacturing process, energy consumption in production and shipping etc. No Chinese manufacturer took part in this process, although they were invited to do so.
Even Tesla has got stung, since its Model 3 (made in Shanghai) is ineligible while the Model Y (made in Berlin) was deemed eligible.
The full list can be found here
Other EU countries which offer EV bonus payments look likely to follow suit. But what about the UK?
Ban the flammable shite. |
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Post by steppenwolf on Jul 1, 2024 6:25:22 GMT
In general I don't support protectionism - and the EU Customs Union is a glaring example of this. However there is such a thing as unfair trade commonly called "dumping". And China have taken this to extremes. Countries need to protect themselves from this or they'll lose their industry.
Some years ago I bought a guitar made in China (a Gitane DG500 - an accurate copy of Django Rheinhart's guitar). It cost me (new) £300. I wanted the nut string spacing changing so I took it to my local luthier (there's a company near me who hand make guitars in an old run down country house). The guy looked at it and asked how much it cost. When I told him he said that he couldn't even buy the wood for that money - and it takes about a man month of labour to make a guitar. That's dumping.
One interesting thing about it is that this same guitar costs nearer £1000 now. This is what the Chinese do. They establish their market by selling good quality stuff at a loss - but having wiped out the competition they put the prices up.
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Post by Vinny on Jul 3, 2024 8:35:38 GMT
Like I said, China uses economics as a weapon.
They are governed by an enemy.
Sanction them and they cannot attack us with dumping.
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Post by Hutchyns on Jul 3, 2024 11:07:16 GMT
steppenwolf
Let's just say steppenwolf had £1000 disposable cash that he'd decided he could afford to spend. But the guitar he really wanted was still out of his price range. But along come the Chinese who say, 'Why not buy a really good guitar from us for £300, that'll leave you £700 that you wouldn't otherwise have had, that you can now use to pay for other things ... you can keep your local window cleaner in employment, get a local gardener if for the whole day to tidy the place up, buy a new jacket from the local tailor, take your filthy car to the car wash more often or have money to give to the Scouts to clean it on a Saturday morning .... you'll be able to throw some work in the direction of your local luthier, pay a local handyman to repair the wall at the back, and buy a couple of better joints of meat for Sunday dinner from the local butcher.
All that extra money to support the local economy, and a bloody good new guitar into the bargain, and all because the Chinese saved you from having to pay through the nose for a guitar from profiteers who want to charge the same price for a couple of blocks of wood, that would have left you wondering if they've mistakenly charged you for a couple of gold bars instead ?
The Chinese have a massive population and finding work for them all to keep them out of mischief is no easy task ...... don't look a gift horse in the mouth when in certain instances we let the Chinese do the work for us, and with the substantial amounts they allow us to save, it gives us the opportunity to support or increase employment of numerous people nearer home, who we otherwise wouldn't have had the spare cash to help out.
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ginnyg2
Full Member
Don't blame me - I voted for someone else.
Posts: 402
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Post by ginnyg2 on Jul 3, 2024 12:58:42 GMT
It's true that at the lower end of the consumer market there's very little alternative these days. But that doesn't apply to cars.
Cheapest EVs in the UK 2024:
Cheapest electric cars
Dacia Spring - £14,995
Citroen e-C3 - £21,990
Vauxhall Corsa Electric - £26,895
MG4 - £26,995
Mazda MX-30 - £27,995
Fiat 500e - £28,195
Nissan Leaf - £28,495
MINI Cooper - £30,000
BYD Dolphin - £30,195
MG ZS EV - £30,495
The Dacia, although a sub-brand of Renault, is actually made in China, as the MGs (2) and BYD. But six of the ten cheapest are made in the UK or Europe.
Most Dacia cars are manufactured in Romania, some in Morocco. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jul 3, 2024 13:20:09 GMT
The small countries benefitting from cheap Chinese electric trucks will be even more chuffed if the Chinese can provide cheap power generation as part of the package. South Africa, for example, nominal leader of the BRICS, has less generating capacity now than it had in the bad old days of Apartheid. Just for interest; South Africa are hugely reliant (As are several other African countries) on coal fired power stations funded and built by China. Shining a Light on China’s Support for coal Power Plants in Africa and Asia - linkSolar will take over in Africa, guaranteed. It's the cheapest form of energy and China controls the global market. South Africa is now a member of BRICS so it will do OK. It has a lot of natural resources. It's a shame the Brits cocked it up down there. China is now reducing its mix of coal as an energy source and solar is increasing in China to replace it. The whole game has completely changed in the last ten years because of solar's reducing costs. However, right now China has to burn coal to keep the lights on. Over in Africa I heard the Africans failed to run the power stations and they all started fucking up. They are incompetent and corrupt. Now China is doing their thinking for them and stuff is starting to work again. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jul 3, 2024 13:26:53 GMT
In general I don't support protectionism - and the EU Customs Union is a glaring example of this. However there is such a thing as unfair trade commonly called "dumping". And China have taken this to extremes. Countries need to protect themselves from this or they'll lose their industry. Some years ago I bought a guitar made in China (a Gitane DG500 - an accurate copy of Django Rheinhart's guitar). It cost me (new) £300. I wanted the nut string spacing changing so I took it to my local luthier (there's a company near me who hand make guitars in an old run down country house). The guy looked at it and asked how much it cost. When I told him he said that he couldn't even buy the wood for that money - and it takes about a man month of labour to make a guitar. That's dumping. One interesting thing about it is that this same guitar costs nearer £1000 now. This is what the Chinese do. They establish their market by selling good quality stuff at a loss - but having wiped out the competition they put the prices up. It's not dumping. Dumping is where where the product is sold for more in the home country and using those profits to subsidise foreign exports. Your intellect is lacking on this issue. You neglect to think that in China the wood is cheaper. Everything is made with far more automation, so the whole supply chain is economised. 28 seconds of human labout is used in China to build the latest Huawei phones. How many seconds of human labour do you suppose it takes the wood factory? |
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Post by Red Rackham on Jul 3, 2024 13:54:42 GMT
Just for interest; South Africa are hugely reliant (As are several other African countries) on coal fired power stations funded and built by China. Shining a Light on China’s Support for coal Power Plants in Africa and Asia - linkSolar will take over in Africa, guaranteed. It's the cheapest form of energy and China controls the global market. South Africa is now a member of BRICS so it will do OK. It has a lot of natural resources. It's a shame the Brits cocked it up down there. China is now reducing its mix of coal as an energy source and solar is increasing in China to replace it. The whole game has completely changed in the last ten years because of solar's reducing costs. However, right now China has to burn coal to keep the lights on. Over in Africa I heard the Africans failed to run the power stations and they all started fucking up. They are incompetent and corrupt. Now China is doing their thinking for them and stuff is starting to work again. BvL, I'm sick to death of people saying China is going green, or China are world leaders in green tech, I accept they produce and sell a lot of it to mugs like us in the west but believe me China is not going green. China have more coal fired power plants and burn more coal than any country in the world, they are massively reliant on coal and that is not going to change any time soon because Xi Jinping knows damned well that going green will kill the economy. China calls for hundreds of new coal power plants by 2030 - linkChina building more than half of the worlds new coal power plants - linkXi Jinping says he will not only build coal power plants in Asia and Africa but will provide finance to build them - link
There are dozens and dozens of similar links. The fact is, and it is a fact, anyone who says China is going green don't know what they're talking about. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jul 3, 2024 15:02:24 GMT
Solar will take over in Africa, guaranteed. It's the cheapest form of energy and China controls the global market. South Africa is now a member of BRICS so it will do OK. It has a lot of natural resources. It's a shame the Brits cocked it up down there. China is now reducing its mix of coal as an energy source and solar is increasing in China to replace it. The whole game has completely changed in the last ten years because of solar's reducing costs. However, right now China has to burn coal to keep the lights on. Over in Africa I heard the Africans failed to run the power stations and they all started fucking up. They are incompetent and corrupt. Now China is doing their thinking for them and stuff is starting to work again. BvL, I'm sick to death of people saying China is going green, or China are world leaders in green tech, I accept they produce and sell a lot of it to mugs like us in the west but believe me China is not going green. China have more coal fired power plants and burn more coal than any country in the world, they are massively reliant on coal and that is not going to change any time soon because Xi Jinping knows damned well that going green will kill the economy. China calls for hundreds of new coal power plants by 2030 - linkChina building more than half of the worlds new coal power plants - linkXi Jinping says he will not only build coal power plants in Asia and Africa but will provide finance to build them - link
There are dozens and dozens of similar links. The fact is, and it is a fact, anyone who says China is going green don't know what they're talking about. Your sources lie to you by omission. They purposefully omit the fact that in the last year or two China's solar energy production has gone through the roof. Check the numbers. I'm not lying to you. Someone suggested aside from the government initiatives to promote it, why it rocketed was due to that Evergrande crash and similar with Country Garden. Prior to the crash the most profitable way to invest money in China was in property, so it distorted investments. Now property investment is the reverse and is deflating, the big money went to for the next most profitable investment, which is green energy.
I think China is now 60% coal, where once coal was the main energy source, but now nuclear is also coming online as well. The difference between us and them though was that our coal power stations were built circa 1950s, so when we closed them down they were old and decrepit. China's coal stations started more like 1980s onwards so they still have a long service life ahead of them. China will tell you that Britain is being hypocritical since Britain has been burning far more coal per capital and all the way back to the industrial revolution, where in China they only just got started, and unfortunately they built them before solar was in any way viable. Solar in the 80s was ridiculously costly, and no one imagined it would ever become the dominant source of energy, but that's how it is. We can't know all of what science will invent. China is also researching thorium, and we uncouth critics are not.
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Post by Red Rackham on Jul 3, 2024 15:13:54 GMT
In 2023, China's coal consumption amounted to some 91.94 exajoules, up from 87.54 exajoules in the previous year. Between 1998 and 2023, figures increased by more than 60 exajoules. As of 2022, China was by far the world's largest coal consumer, with nearly 55 percent of global coal consumption. Coal consumption in China increases year on year. Net zero is only for the west.  |
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Post by Bentley on Jul 3, 2024 15:25:16 GMT
Sooo…when we achieve net zero we will not be dependent on oil and gas exporting countries . We will be dependent on the net zero energy exporting countries . Which are mostly China
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jul 3, 2024 16:26:15 GMT
In 2023, China's coal consumption amounted to some 91.94 exajoules, up from 87.54 exajoules in the previous year. Between 1998 and 2023, figures increased by more than 60 exajoules. As of 2022, China was by far the world's largest coal consumer, with nearly 55 percent of global coal consumption. Coal consumption in China increases year on year. Net zero is only for the west. That looks about as I recall it. The reason the percentage mix of coal is going down is because energy production is going up. If you pull up a similar graph of nuclear, wind and solar you will see they are all increasing as well, but at a faster rate. That graph is flattening off, but they had a bit of an energy crisis if you recall and power cuts. This was because the government was prematurely trying to reduce coal power. The reason energy consumption has gone up is because in all their major industries output has gone up and so have exports. Take it form me, the government is doing all it can now to boost renewable energy. One big motivation is health. In the past China was a rather dirty industrial place and the sky was a haze of pollution. The way the government operates policy is they decide upon how much something will cost vs the real life benefits of the investment, and right now they are trying to improve the living environment and they build large green parks in the middle of cities and all sorts. This raises the value of the property and living standards, so they absolutely want clean air. They want everyone to have a comfortable middle class lifestyle, so if you think about it, it makes a lot of sense. The other factor to do with the quality of life is the noise pollution of petrol cars.
They have a big problem fitting the number of cars people want onto the roads, despite some roads having 8+ lanes. The next move is very interesting indeed. They want to move the freight off the roads and fly it in drones. They have developed electric cargo drones capable of 300m range and 5000 feet altitude. They say they are cheaper than using conventional transport and the drones will be flown by computer. I just wish the Brits would shut up complaining and invent some of this stuff for themselves, then we can have something to sell them. |
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Post by Red Rackham on Jul 3, 2024 16:27:09 GMT
Sooo…when we achieve net zero we will not be dependent on oil and gas exporting countries . We will be dependent on the net zero energy exporting countries . Which are mostly China Precisely. Net zero is, in effect, the transfer of power and influence from west to east. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jul 3, 2024 16:53:19 GMT
Sooo…when we achieve net zero we will not be dependent on oil and gas exporting countries . We will be dependent on the net zero energy exporting countries . Which are mostly China Precisely. Net zero is, in effect, the transfer of power and influence from west to east. More like the Middle East to the Far East.
Actually what I like about solar energy is it also transfers power from this rip off cartel bitches at the energy firms like British Gas to your local farmer or home owner. It is this which will give us our cheap energy. I guess you know what it is like to deal with the mad mullahs of the Middle East.
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Post by Bentley on Jul 3, 2024 17:04:51 GMT
Precisely. Net zero is, in effect, the transfer of power and influence from west to east. More like the Middle East to the Far East.
Actually what I like about solar energy is it also transfers power from this rip off cartel bitches at the energy firms like British Gas to your local farmer or home owner. It is this which will give us our cheap energy. I guess you know what it is like to deal with the mad mullahs of the Middle East.
I doubt it . |
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