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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Dec 4, 2022 15:55:20 GMT
The Left is typically very suspicious of the of criminality being severely punished. I think this comes from the semi-subconscious acknowledgement that a society beset with criminality works generally in their favour by creating desperation and poverty. Not to mention that the kleptomaniac left wing mindset isn't that far removed from that of the criminal underclass. |
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Post by dappy on Dec 4, 2022 17:52:37 GMT
You have given me as evidence an opinion piece from 20 years ago which appears to have lots of words but no substance whatsoever. It’s actually quite weird. I kept on waiting for him to get to the point, but the article turned out to be entirely pointless.
There are loads of articles online about the Dutch experience - tap Netherlands empty prisons into google have a good read and reflect a little. Then could I ask you to come back and explain why we wouldn’t wish to try the same policy - less reoffending less crime less victims of crime less cost - what’s not to like.
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Dec 4, 2022 20:24:46 GMT
Because we've been trying it for the last 30 years and it doesn't work.
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Equivocal
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Post by Equivocal on Dec 4, 2022 20:41:19 GMT
A lawless society is the inevitable result of a left wing judiciary. Prison works. Here you go:
The figures don't appear to hang together with either your or David Green's argument.
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Post by Toreador on Dec 4, 2022 21:09:52 GMT
Is it possible that the apparent fall in crime is actually because less crime is reported due to police failure to respond?
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Equivocal
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Post by Equivocal on Dec 4, 2022 21:16:36 GMT
Is it possible that the apparent fall in crime is actually because less crime is reported due to police failure to respond? I'd bet there's a lot of truth in that for police reported crime. At the same time, the BCS is a survey based model and is different from police reported crime. |
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Post by sheepy on Dec 5, 2022 8:20:17 GMT
The Left is typically very suspicious of the of criminality being severely punished. I think this comes from the semi-subconscious acknowledgement that a society beset with criminality works generally in their favour by creating desperation and poverty. Not to mention that the kleptomaniac left wing mindset isn't that far removed from that of the criminal underclass. Societal change has been under the control of central government for decades as somebody said the other day, nobody cares any longer. Whether that was the plan all along, nobody knows. Now we are all seeing another societal change where eating and drinking or keeping warm for the masses is becoming harder by the day. Keep voting Westminster party at your own peril. |
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Post by Orac on Dec 5, 2022 8:48:02 GMT
Societal change has been under the control of central government for decades as somebody said the other day, nobody cares any longer. Whether that was the plan all along, nobody knows. Yes - a lot of it is the demoralising effect of having a top-down managed society, rather than something organic that to belongs to yourself (itself). I imagine the same demoralisation occurs in prisoners. It's unclear what changed to make a society that was definitely moving in the opposite direction suddenly change course, but it's clear that by the 2000s the change was underway |
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Post by Toreador on Dec 5, 2022 8:52:18 GMT
Societal change has been under the control of central government for decades as somebody said the other day, nobody cares any longer. Whether that was the plan all along, nobody knows. Yes - a lot of it is the demoralising effect of having a top-down managed society, rather than something organic that to belongs to yourself (itself). I imagine the same demoralisation occurs in prisoners. It's unclear what changed to make a society that was definitely moving in the opposite direction suddenly change course, but it's clear that by the 2000s the change was underwayFor me it was clear from the mid-60s. |
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Post by Orac on Dec 5, 2022 8:58:15 GMT
Not to mention that the kleptomaniac left wing mindset isn't that far removed from that of the criminal underclass. I think many on the left have been trained to view a society in which people can go about their business, as some kind of right wing tyranny. "It does the lower orders good to be reminded how vulnerable they are - release some more from the prisons" |
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Post by Orac on Dec 5, 2022 9:04:21 GMT
For me it was clear from the mid-60s. You may well be right. Family who remember the sixties would likely agree with you. I would say that in the sixties, the UK was still a self management based (self owned) society and in the top few worldwide in this. The 2000s saw the managerial gulag doors really opening , and now it resembles a soviet experiment |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Dec 5, 2022 12:32:38 GMT
For me it was clear from the mid-60s. You may well be right. Family who remember the sixties would likely agree with you. I would say that in the sixties, the UK was still a self management based (self owned) society and in the top few worldwide in this. The 2000s saw the managerial gulag doors really opening , and now it resembles a soviet experiment I think it is why many industries in the UK are experiencing staff shortages. People can't be fucked with all the bullshit and woke nonsense. On the radio earlier it was saying many of the nurseries have closed. They also said it took 16 hours of paperwork to enrol a single child. 16 hours!!!! Mao would be proud. |
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Post by piglet on Dec 5, 2022 12:37:54 GMT
Liberalism seeks to understand rather than punish, and in doing so excuses all. The police and judiciary are parental figures, part of social services. And this is what we get. Anarchy.
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Post by sheepy on Dec 6, 2022 21:39:54 GMT
Yes - a lot of it is the demoralising effect of having a top-down managed society, rather than something organic that to belongs to yourself (itself). I imagine the same demoralisation occurs in prisoners. It's unclear what changed to make a society that was definitely moving in the opposite direction suddenly change course, but it's clear that by the 2000s the change was underwayFor me it was clear from the mid-60s. I thought I would prove the point of why, because the faithful are unreachable even when it is under their nose. |
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Post by ginnyg on Dec 13, 2022 9:26:10 GMT
Is it possible that the apparent fall in crime is actually because less crime is reported due to police failure to respond? I'd bet there's a lot of truth in that for police reported crime. At the same time, the BCS is a survey based model and is different from police reported crime. I used to work on the BCS. Its random nature means it's rather like firing a shotgun into the air hoping you might hit something. |
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