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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2022 6:51:00 GMT
He has not been found guilty of murder - the verdict was manslaughter. Seems the gun accidentally went off and a ricochet killed the Irish lad. I find that suspect. He just happened to be pointing that gun at somebody when it "accidentally" went off. Did he "accidentally" pull the trigger then? Because I have never heard of a gun going off without the trigger being pulled. Its manslaughter only because intent cannot be proven, but logically it is difficult to see how this could have been accidental. |
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Post by totheleft3 on Nov 26, 2022 7:38:06 GMT
He has not been found guy continuing derby - the verdict was manslaughter. Seems the gun accidentally went off and a ricochet killed the Irish lad. I find that suspect. He just happened to be pointing that gun at somebody when it "accidentally" went off. Did he "accidentally" pull the trigger then? Because I have never heard of a gun going off without the trigger being pulled. Its manslaughter only because intent cannot be proven, but logically it is difficult to see how this could have been accidental. The soldiers hands were wet when he pulled the trigger according to his statement but the judge said he lied during the trail |
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Post by totheleft3 on Nov 26, 2022 7:46:47 GMT
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 26, 2022 8:01:32 GMT
He has not been found guilty of murder - the verdict was manslaughter. Seems the gun accidentally went off and a ricochet killed the Irish lad. I find that suspect. He just happened to be pointing that gun at somebody when it "accidentally" went off. Did he "accidentally" pull the trigger then? Because I have never heard of a gun going off without the trigger being pulled. Its manslaughter only because intent cannot be proven, but logically it is difficult to see how this could have been accidental. The sequence of events was that he didnt realise the gun was cocked with the safety off so it accidentally discharged whereupon the round ricochet off the road and hit the poor guy in the back. Now he was certainly guilty of a negligent discharge of a weapon and the subsequent accidental shooting of the victim. But the claim that the victim was deliberately murdered can only be made if you believe its possible to ricochet a bullet of the road with an intent to hit the target - and if you believe that you have been watching too many Die Hard films.. |
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Post by dappy on Nov 26, 2022 9:30:34 GMT
The court will have heard accounts of the full sequence of events that happened on that day. As far as I know there is no suggestion that this was a deliberate killing but the court was clear that it was a grossly negligent killing crossing the line into a criminal act.
There are no doubt many plausible explanations for what happened. It’s not hard to imagine for example a cocky excited kid handed a dangerous weapon he was not ready for in his maturity showing off to his mates by pointing the gun at the back of an innocent man but getting it wrong and the gun discharging.
The real guilty party is less the man found to be a criminal yesterday but more the state and senior military men who chose to calmly cover up his crime, choosing to protect one of their own over the interests of justice. It really is shameful behaviour. You can only imagine the feelings of anger and impotence amongst his family and friends at this arrogant lawless invading force that this cover up will have caused. I wonder how many lives were lost as a result.
You wonder too about the effect of these events on the lad who grew into the man eventually convicted yesterday. It sounds like he didn’t cover himself in glory in court. Has he been mentally tortured all these years by the events of that day? Has he come to believe the lies he was schooled to utter in his defence? Has he fallen victim to the sense of entitlement and exceptionalism that the army seems to instill in it’s often not very bright employees - attitudes that cause such mental health suffering alcoholism and violence when they face reality after leaving their army jobs? Does he feel his actions that day were justified and feel let down that he is not feted as a hero rather than recognised as a criminal? Who knows.
It is right that the family of the victim should finally get justice. At last it is officially recognised that his killing was unjustified and a criminal act. There doesn’t seem much point throwing the convicted man into jail now though. We imprison far too many people in this country. What purpose would it serve. You would love though to get to those who calmly and rationally ordered the cover up , created the injustice and as a result damaged so many lives. They feel like the real guilty men here. They will never have their well merited day in court. May they rot in hell.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2022 9:47:28 GMT
Emotive sentiment has no place in the field of justice, and murder is murder no matter who committs it, and that includes a soldier, policeman or anyone else, no matter who or what they represent.
The fact is that the British Army is not completely squeaky clean, though I do believe that the vast majority of the members of his majesties armed forces do behave and act in a totally professional way.
There were several instances of soldiers indulging in acts of torture, inhuman treatment and summary killings in Iraq, though these incidents are not typical of how our armed forces behave, and are few and far between.
The argument that "THEY dont abide by the rules of war" is not a relevant argument, and neither is the behaviour or actions of the enemy which we fight. As Gandhi once said "an eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind".
We - The British are supposedly known for playing by the rules, its something to be proud of, and its a standard that ought to be the Yardstick for others to follow as the example of how to carry on.
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Post by sandypine on Nov 26, 2022 9:49:56 GMT
He has not been found guilty of murder - the verdict was manslaughter. Seems the gun accidentally went off and a ricochet killed the Irish lad. I find that suspect. He just happened to be pointing that gun at somebody when it "accidentally" went off. Did he "accidentally" pull the trigger then? Because I have never heard of a gun going off without the trigger being pulled. Its manslaughter only because intent cannot be proven, but logically it is difficult to see how this could have been accidental. So you are placing reasonable doubt now in the hands of the prosecution and public opinion. That seems to turn justice on its head. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2022 9:55:51 GMT
He has not been found guilty of murder - the verdict was manslaughter. Seems the gun accidentally went off and a ricochet killed the Irish lad. I find that suspect. He just happened to be pointing that gun at somebody when it "accidentally" went off. Did he "accidentally" pull the trigger then? Because I have never heard of a gun going off without the trigger being pulled. Its manslaughter only because intent cannot be proven, but logically it is difficult to see how this could have been accidental. He was 18 and probably scared from just being there, which would have meant his adrenaline would have been pumping. Tragic shit happens. It isn't like he planned it out, like those who planted bombs or murdered people in front of their wife and children. |
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Post by totheleft3 on Nov 26, 2022 9:56:03 GMT
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Post by dappy on Nov 26, 2022 10:45:33 GMT
The court will have heard accounts of the full sequence of events that happened on that day. As far as I know there is no suggestion that this was a deliberate killing but the court was clear that it was a grossly negligent killing crossing the line into a criminal act.
There are no doubt many plausible explanations for what happened. It’s not hard to imagine for example a cocky excited kid handed a dangerous weapon he was not ready for in his maturity showing off to his mates by pointing the gun at the back of an innocent man but getting it wrong and the gun discharging.
The real guilty party is less the man found to be a criminal yesterday but more the state and senior military men who chose to calmly cover up his crime, choosing to protect one of their own over the interests of justice. It really is shameful behaviour. You can only imagine the feelings of anger and impotence amongst his family and friends at this arrogant lawless invading force that this cover up will have caused. I wonder how many lives were lost as a result.
You wonder too about the effect of these events on the lad who grew into the man eventually convicted yesterday. It sounds like he didn’t cover himself in glory in court. Has he been mentally tortured all these years by the events of that day? Has he come to believe the lies he was schooled to utter in his defence? Has he fallen victim to the sense of entitlement and exceptionalism that the army seems to instill in it’s often not very bright employees - attitudes that cause such mental health suffering alcoholism and violence when they face reality after leaving their army jobs? Does he feel his actions that day were justified and feel let down that he is not feted as a hero rather than recognised as a criminal? Who knows.
It is right that the family of the victim should finally get justice. At last it is officially recognised that his killing was unjustified and a criminal act. There doesn’t seem much point throwing the convicted man into jail now though. We imprison far too many people in this country. What purpose would it serve. You would love though to get to those who calmly and rationally ordered the cover up , created the injustice and as a result damaged so many lives. They feel like the real guilty men here. They will never have their well merited day in court. May they rot in hell.
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Post by Steve on Nov 26, 2022 11:53:55 GMT
He pulled the trigger, it didn't accidentally go off. His 'defence' that couldn't be disproved was he said he didn't know his own gun was cocked. Guilty You don't 'pull' a trigger ffs. However, what do you know of the fatigue and stress of a tour in Northern Ireland, or being on a static VCP, which was essentially a sitting target. Oh you didn't know that static VCP's were a fave target for IRA snipers? I am surprised, Ha. You armchair experts haven't got a clue. You sit in judgment on people who were in situations you couldn't in a million years even begin to imagine. You have absolutely no concept of what you're talking about it's another world. And the reason you're clueless is because you didn't have the balls to join the forces, yet you feel suitably qualified to judge. Well excuse me for accurately posting his 'defence'. But then we all know from the last site that you feel no enlisted soldier can ever be guilty of any crime don't you. Time after time you've said they should never be tried no matter how appalling the intent and results of their actions. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Nov 26, 2022 11:54:10 GMT
Shameful of the British State to have denied justice for so long. While the court did not find intent to kill , it did find a criminal level of gross negligence lead to an innocent man’s death with no suggestion of any threat to the accused who was found to have repeatedly lied to the court. It can’t bring the unlawfully killed man back but at least finally his family have justice. Justice, what the fuck do you know about justice. Stop talking bollox there's good girl. As part of the Good Friday Agreement the 'British State' pardoned and released from prison 428 IRA terrorists, 143 of whom were serving life for murder or mass murder. During 'the troubles' the IRA murdered 800 soldiers and 2000 civilian men women and children. Where's their justice. You know fuck all. I was aware of that. They should have all stayed there. |
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Post by Steve on Nov 26, 2022 12:07:08 GMT
Shameful of the British State to have denied justice for so long. While the court did not find intent to kill , it did find a criminal level of gross negligence lead to an innocent man’s death with no suggestion of any threat to the accused who was found to have repeatedly lied to the court. It can’t bring the unlawfully killed man back but at least finally his family have justice. Justice, what the fuck do you know about justice. Stop talking bollox there's good girl. As part of the Good Friday Agreement the 'British State' pardoned and released from prison 428 IRA terrorists, 143 of whom were serving life for murder or mass murder. During 'the troubles' the IRA murdered 800 soldiers and 2000 civilian men women and children. Where's their justice. You know fuck all. No one was pardoned under the GFA. Many were given 'early release' on licence, BIG difference. And as you have been told countless times, with one unique exception, IRA and UDA and UVF members can still be tried for crimes committed before (and of course after) the GFA that they haven't already been convicted for. |
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Post by Equivocal on Nov 26, 2022 12:24:20 GMT
For what it's worth, my opinion is that the proceedings represent a clear abuse of process and an affront to justice. The original charges were withdrawn in open court and it is not a condition that the defendant must have acted to his detriment, but a persuasive condition. I do not agree with the judgment on abuse of process and hope it will be appealed and the conviction quashed.
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Post by Steve on Nov 26, 2022 14:00:11 GMT
For what it's worth, my opinion is that the proceedings represent a clear abuse of process and an affront to justice. The original charges were withdrawn in open court and it is not a condition that the defendant must have acted to his detriment, but a persuasive condition. I do not agree with the judgment on abuse of process and hope it will be appealed and the conviction quashed.
No abuse of process by the court. New evidence became available (IIRC ballistics) and in such circumstances a trial abandoned at magistrates court can be restarted. The Army deciding just fining someone £370 for illegal killing is a sufficient punishment was a clear abuse of any moral decency. |
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