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Post by Vinny on Apr 26, 2024 11:12:50 GMT
Would the result of our membership referendum been different?
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Post by Dogburger on Apr 26, 2024 14:52:35 GMT
Yes I think so . The thing that boiled my piss more than anything was the dishonesty by both the Europeans and a succession of our own government. It started with "Its only a trade deal" in 1972 and gradually with treaty after treaty got worse . It was only really by the mid 90's with the internet giving the information to the masses that people really started to become aware of what this club was costing us . But yes if it had reformed ,had a two tier membership of wealthy (club A) and poorer nations (club B )(they could always join us later if they got up to speed) and a little less interference of things that should have been left to the nation state .In Europe they needed to reinstate border controls and protect the external ones . Free movement of workers was Ok just not free movement of people . Few other things like abandoning the CFP and the CAP and I might have voted remain , only might mind .  |
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Post by wapentake on Apr 26, 2024 18:57:46 GMT
Yes I think so . The thing that boiled my piss more than anything was the dishonesty by both the Europeans and a succession of our own government. It started with "Its only a trade deal" in 1972 and gradually with treaty after treaty got worse . It was only really by the mid 90's with the internet giving the information to the masses that people really started to become aware of what this club was costing us . But yes if it had reformed ,had a two tier membership of wealthy (club A) and poorer nations (club B )(they could always join us later if they got up to speed) and a little less interference of things that should have been left to the nation state .In Europe they needed to reinstate border controls and protect the external ones . Free movement of workers was Ok just not free movement of people . Few other things like abandoning the CFP and the CAP and I might have voted remain , only might mind . If it had remained a common market I reckon we’d still be there. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2024 19:31:17 GMT
Would the result of our membership referendum been different? Do you mean when Cameron was running to and fro getting agreements prior to the referendum? The EU did not move an inch, but Cameron totally misrepresented this as a win for Britain and her sovereignty, when really nothing happened. I remember the benefits provided to foreigners came up as a matter, Cameron said we could limit benefits to new arrivals, when we already had that power. Cameron was a liar. If the EU had actually thrown us a few bones, it might have been a remain result. It wouldn't have taken much as the result was fairly close. |
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Post by Dogburger on Apr 26, 2024 19:32:47 GMT
Yes I think so . The thing that boiled my piss more than anything was the dishonesty by both the Europeans and a succession of our own government. It started with "Its only a trade deal" in 1972 and gradually with treaty after treaty got worse . It was only really by the mid 90's with the internet giving the information to the masses that people really started to become aware of what this club was costing us . But yes if it had reformed ,had a two tier membership of wealthy (club A) and poorer nations (club B )(they could always join us later if they got up to speed) and a little less interference of things that should have been left to the nation state .In Europe they needed to reinstate border controls and protect the external ones . Free movement of workers was Ok just not free movement of people . Few other things like abandoning the CFP and the CAP and I might have voted remain , only might mind . If it had remained a common market I reckon we’d still be there. For sure ,just another trade deal that we overpaid for but a trade deal non the less |
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Post by Dogburger on Apr 26, 2024 19:35:47 GMT
Would the result of our membership referendum been different? Do you mean when Cameron was running to and fro getting agreements prior to the referendum? The EU did not move an inch, but Cameron totally misrepresented this as a win for Britain and her sovereignty, when really nothing happened. I remember the benefits provided to foreigners came up as a matter, Cameron said we could limit benefits to new arrivals, when we already had that power. Cameron was a liar. If the EU had actually thrown us a few bones, it might have been a remain result. It wouldn't have taken much as the result was fairly close. Indeed when Cameron came back with nothing but waffle us leavers knew it was game on |
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Post by Vinny on Apr 26, 2024 20:43:39 GMT
Would the result of our membership referendum been different? Do you mean when Cameron was running to and fro getting agreements prior to the referendum? The EU did not move an inch, but Cameron totally misrepresented this as a win for Britain and her sovereignty, when really nothing happened. I remember the benefits provided to foreigners came up as a matter, Cameron said we could limit benefits to new arrivals, when we already had that power. Cameron was a liar. If the EU had actually thrown us a few bones, it might have been a remain result. It wouldn't have taken much as the result was fairly close. Exactly, if he'd actually achieved reform, it might have been a remain result. The failure to achieve reform, and then lie, presenting failure as success that really really ruined the remain position. Remainers love to now claim that the leave campaign was dishonest. I cannot think of a more dishonest campaign than their own. |
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Post by Red Rackham on Apr 27, 2024 11:03:16 GMT
Would the result of our membership referendum been different? EU reform is not possible. The EU is an imposed authoritarian socialist construct (See communism) that is diametrically opposed to change, the very fact that the executive and president are appointed not elected (See Politburo) shows us that democracy must not be allowed interfere with the mission. |
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Post by Vinny on Apr 27, 2024 11:06:35 GMT
They are currently proposing to cut the powers of the Commission and hand legislative initiative to MEPs.
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Post by Dogburger on Apr 27, 2024 11:40:16 GMT
They are currently proposing to cut the powers of the Commission and hand legislative initiative to MEPs. The rise of the right across Europe has forced their hand on that .They need to 'appear' more democratic . Whether that turns out to be the case we will have to wait and see . |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Apr 27, 2024 12:04:38 GMT
They are currently proposing to cut the powers of the Commission and hand legislative initiative to MEPs. Eight years after we voted to leave and it's still only a proposal. Had that actually been in place I might have voted differently. But the EU can't help itself. |
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Post by Red Rackham on Apr 27, 2024 12:43:39 GMT
They are currently proposing to cut the powers of the Commission and hand legislative initiative to MEPs. Well OK, and call me a doubting Thomas, but I think we both know that the real power in the EU will be retained by unelected bureaucrats who are vetted prior to appointment to ensure their dedication to the mission and who cant be removed by any democratic process. The architects of the project and the people in power are very aware that the only instrument that could kill the EU is democracy, therefor democracy must be restricted. |
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Post by Vinny on Apr 27, 2024 12:43:45 GMT
And with the MEP elections this year the reform process could be reset.
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Apr 28, 2024 11:06:08 GMT
They are currently proposing to cut the powers of the Commission and hand legislative initiative to MEPs. Well OK, and call me a doubting Thomas, but I think we both know that the real power in the EU will be retained by unelected bureaucrats who are vetted prior to appointment to ensure their dedication to the mission and who cant be removed by any democratic process. The architects of the project and the people in power are very aware that the only instrument that could kill the EU is democracy, therefor democracy must be restricted. Probably the real reason behind Germany wanting to ban the opposition. Can't have democracy threatening the project now can we? |
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Post by Cartertonian on Apr 28, 2024 11:12:15 GMT
Meanwhile, in our budding Singapore-on-Thames, home to the phenomenon of the 'wannabe sovereign individual', I think we both know that the real power in the UK will be retained by unelected media moguls and billionaires who are unvetted and unaccountable, to ensure their dedication to their mission of undermining any democratic process. |
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