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Post by Orac on Apr 5, 2024 8:39:43 GMT
Incorrect. Not sure how many times this has to be said. There are a small number of startling people with the condition, who appear to have superhuman and narrow abilities. However, generally, the condition does not come with such super-powers and can have some pretty dramatic drawbacks I know exactly what it is because I have seen the scientific papers on it with the graphs plotting these traits. I suggest you look a bit closer since all I'm doing here is explaining peer reviewed science. I did link the data a while back but it was ignored. The density of neurons in the frontal cortex is significantly higher. Because our understanding of the brain is very tenuous, the way to look reliably at function is not to examine neuron density, it is to examine function. Most people who are autistic are not blessed with any superhuman powers. They experience the condition as a mild disability / trade-off. This would be my best guess as to why reality is not matching your expectations here re employment |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2024 10:38:49 GMT
Sorry what? Are you saying they can't speak? Some can't. That is one example of an impaired function you asked of. Which is the case with my nephew. He's 47 now and has never said a word. He lives in sheltered accommodation provided by the autistic society. It does run in our family. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Apr 5, 2024 11:29:27 GMT
I know exactly what it is because I have seen the scientific papers on it with the graphs plotting these traits. I suggest you look a bit closer since all I'm doing here is explaining peer reviewed science. I did link the data a while back but it was ignored. The density of neurons in the frontal cortex is significantly higher. Because our understanding of the brain is very tenuous, the way to look reliably at function is not to examine neuron density, it is to examine function. Most people who are autistic are not blessed with any superhuman powers. They experience the condition as a mild disability / trade-off. This would be my best guess as to why reality is not matching your expectations here re employment That sounds like vague waffle. Disability could mean anything and I never said superhuman powers whatever that means. My thesis is the problem is the work environment is suited to the normal brain. People make their lives particularly hard due to ignorance.
Here is your data by the way.
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Post by Bentley on Apr 5, 2024 12:40:11 GMT
Yes but that doesn’t refute my point and not all Autistic people can calculate stuff better than others . In fact some are severely handicapped by it. You are merely repeating a trope. If I had meant that I would have said every autistic person can calculate better than any normal person. As you should know by now the ability is a probability distribution curve, similar in shape to a normal curve. You get a similar distribution curve with the autistic group but shifted to the right, hence why I said they can do it better. I was talking about the group.
The standard taxonomy describes autism as a spectrum. They used to define Aspenger's separately, but lumped it in with what they call autism now, or to use the trendy terminology, they are now "on the spectrum". They further delineate into two groups which are called high functioning autism and low functioning autism, but this seem a a bit arbitrary.Right at the low end there are cases where you have adults with very low mental ages, so they are all round very dysfunctional. The thing is the condition is not fully understood. These very low intelligence people might have other complications. Maybe it is inbreeding or something.
That’s what you seemed to be getting at ..that bring autistic is an evolutionary boost. Now you are basically saying that the Autistic spectrum refutes that very claim. Im not sure that you have a point to make l |
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Post by happyhornet on Apr 5, 2024 12:57:37 GMT
I'm not sure about autistic superpowers but based on my own observations I do think that autistic and neurotypical people have complementary strengths and weaknesses which if put together can benefit an employer. In my case I've managed to find employment which suits my personal expression of autism. I haven't carved out a successful career as a Bid Writer in spite of my autism, I've done it in part because of my autism. When it comes to autistic unemployment overall I think a big part of it is that workplaces and the working culture is set up by and for neurotypical people. That means that neurotypical weaknesses are compensated for and/or not noticed or remarked upon whereas the opposite is true of autistic weaknesses. For example, one criticism I've had at work before is that I lack initiative and the fact that I had done everything asked of me to a high standard was actually used against me because I hadn't also done things that weren't in my job description and I hadn't been asked to do. This to me seems illogical and unfair but appears to make sense to every neurotypical person I've explained it to. I daresay if the ratio were reversed, if what we call neurotypical people made up 1% of the population and autistic people 99% you'd see neurotypical people struggling to find and hold down employment because again the system and culture simply wouldn't be designed to accommodate them. There's an interesting article here which imagines just such a scenario: troycamplin.medium.com/a-pathological-look-at-neurotypical-behavior-ee77d41e7e81 |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Apr 5, 2024 13:18:01 GMT
If I had meant that I would have said every autistic person can calculate better than any normal person. As you should know by now the ability is a probability distribution curve, similar in shape to a normal curve. You get a similar distribution curve with the autistic group but shifted to the right, hence why I said they can do it better. I was talking about the group.
The standard taxonomy describes autism as a spectrum. They used to define Aspenger's separately, but lumped it in with what they call autism now, or to use the trendy terminology, they are now "on the spectrum". They further delineate into two groups which are called high functioning autism and low functioning autism, but this seem a a bit arbitrary.Right at the low end there are cases where you have adults with very low mental ages, so they are all round very dysfunctional. The thing is the condition is not fully understood. These very low intelligence people might have other complications. Maybe it is inbreeding or something.
That’s what you seemed to be getting at ..that bring autistic is an evolutionary boost. Now you are basically saying that the Autistic spectrum refutes that very claim. Im not sure that you have a point to make l This talk by the professor is probably the best and most complete summary of scientific thinking to date.
The point here is the solution is greater intelligence. Start with the science and the experimental data. That's the reality. Now we have to explain how these brains ended up as they are when considering the evolutionary mechanism, which I hope you are familiar with.
There are some very smart autistic people. I don't know if you are a user of Windows, but it was built in part by autistic people. One of my favourite YT computing channels is this guy.
Fiver minutes of listening to him may look like he is like anyone else. This is the other thing about autism. Since autistic traits when observed by people in authority result in negative repercussions for the person, they learn to fake normality just to get by. It's hard to fake it 24/7 so the mental energy to do that plus the stress of the job leads to burnout.
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Post by Bentley on Apr 5, 2024 15:52:21 GMT
That’s what you seemed to be getting at ..that bring autistic is an evolutionary boost. Now you are basically saying that the Autistic spectrum refutes that very claim. Im not sure that you have a point to make l This talk by the professor is probably the best and most complete summary of scientific thinking to date.
The point here is the solution is greater intelligence. Start with the science and the experimental data. That's the reality. Now we have to explain how these brains ended up as they are when considering the evolutionary mechanism, which I hope you are familiar with.
There are some very smart autistic people. I don't know if you are a user of Windows, but it was built in part by autistic people. One of my favourite YT computing channels is this guy.
Fiver minutes of listening to him may look like he is like anyone else. This is the other thing about autism. Since autistic traits when observed by people in authority result in negative repercussions for the person, they learn to fake normality just to get by. It's hard to fake it 24/7 so the mental energy to do that plus the stress of the job leads to burnout.
There sent a ‘ solution’ to,Autism and Autism isn’t a solution . There are some very smart people without Autism . As I said , you don’t seem to have a point to make ..unless your point changes from post to post . |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Apr 5, 2024 16:17:06 GMT
I'm not sure about autistic superpowers but based on my own observations I do think that autistic and neurotypical people have complementary strengths and weaknesses which if put together can benefit an employer. In my case I've managed to find employment which suits my personal expression of autism. I haven't carved out a successful career as a Bid Writer in spite of my autism, I've done it in part because of my autism. When it comes to autistic unemployment overall I think a big part of it is that workplaces and the working culture is set up by and for neurotypical people. That means that neurotypical weaknesses are compensated for and/or not noticed or remarked upon whereas the opposite is true of autistic weaknesses. For example, one criticism I've had at work before is that I lack initiative and the fact that I had done everything asked of me to a high standard was actually used against me because I hadn't also done things that weren't in my job description and I hadn't been asked to do. This to me seems illogical and unfair but appears to make sense to every neurotypical person I've explained it to. I daresay if the ratio were reversed, if what we call neurotypical people made up 1% of the population and autistic people 99% you'd see neurotypical people struggling to find and hold down employment because again the system and culture simply wouldn't be designed to accommodate them. There's an interesting article here which imagines just such a scenario: troycamplin.medium.com/a-pathological-look-at-neurotypical-behavior-ee77d41e7e81Yes, this does concur with what I was saying in the OP. With all that checking going on and diligent research we would hardly see any disasters in the news. It appears to me they are actively got rid of in many firms for disagreeing with the majority, who made the decision on emotional grounds because it sounded good. |
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Post by ratcliff on Apr 5, 2024 16:41:42 GMT
I'm not sure about autistic superpowers but based on my own observations I do think that autistic and neurotypical people have complementary strengths and weaknesses which if put together can benefit an employer. In my case I've managed to find employment which suits my personal expression of autism. I haven't carved out a successful career as a Bid Writer in spite of my autism, I've done it in part because of my autism. When it comes to autistic unemployment overall I think a big part of it is that workplaces and the working culture is set up by and for neurotypical people. That means that neurotypical weaknesses are compensated for and/or not noticed or remarked upon whereas the opposite is true of autistic weaknesses. For example, one criticism I've had at work before is that I lack initiative and the fact that I had done everything asked of me to a high standard was actually used against me because I hadn't also done things that weren't in my job description and I hadn't been asked to do. This to me seems illogical and unfair but appears to make sense to every neurotypical person I've explained it to. I daresay if the ratio were reversed, if what we call neurotypical people made up 1% of the population and autistic people 99% you'd see neurotypical people struggling to find and hold down employment because again the system and culture simply wouldn't be designed to accommodate them. There's an interesting article here which imagines just such a scenario: troycamplin.medium.com/a-pathological-look-at-neurotypical-behavior-ee77d41e7e81
This to me seems illogical and unfair but appears to make sense to every neurotypical person I've explained it to.
Criticism makes perfect sense - you lack initiative at work or in trades union terms you work to rule |
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Post by borchester on Apr 5, 2024 16:42:27 GMT
I have tried to alert you to this before, but you ignored me.I feel you have an over romanticised view an autism. Many people with autism, far from possessing special super-powers, are genuinely handicapped by the condition - ie they are have seriously impaired function What exactly does impaired function mean? It means that they are dimwits.
There is nothing wrong with that. Very few modern jobs require much intellectual input. However, the Social Studies industry likes to act as though there is, otherwise there would not be much of a Social Studies industry left.
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Apr 5, 2024 18:25:41 GMT
What exactly does impaired function mean? It means that they are dimwits.
There is nothing wrong with that. Very few modern jobs require much intellectual input. However, the Social Studies industry likes to act as though there is, otherwise there would not be much of a Social Studies industry left.
One job requirement which is almost universally demanded by the job agencies is that one must be able to "fit in" or words to that effect. In fact my observations in the job market these days is there is more and more emphasis on the character of the person than their abilities. Do you ever read the crap posted on Linkedin? Some people say it is becoming more and more a lunatic asylum by the day, making it very hard to "fit in". |
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Post by seniorcitizen007 on Apr 5, 2024 18:43:09 GMT
'The Myth of Autism: Medicalising Men's and Boys' Social and Emotional Competence' by Sami Timimi: Professor of Child Psychiatry and Mental Health Improvement at the University of Lincoln.
In this book he likens the treatment some autistic people get subjected to to the way the "pre-war Germans" treated the Jews.
I met Sami when he was 14. He came across to me as just about the most intelligent person I'd ever met. He gives talks in Parliament to MPs ... with the theme of how psychiatry is having a "negative influence" on the well-being of modern societies. An associate of his, Joanna Moncrieff, titled one of her publications: 'The Medicalisation of Modern Living'.
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Post by happyhornet on Apr 6, 2024 6:57:33 GMT
I'm not sure about autistic superpowers but based on my own observations I do think that autistic and neurotypical people have complementary strengths and weaknesses which if put together can benefit an employer. In my case I've managed to find employment which suits my personal expression of autism. I haven't carved out a successful career as a Bid Writer in spite of my autism, I've done it in part because of my autism. When it comes to autistic unemployment overall I think a big part of it is that workplaces and the working culture is set up by and for neurotypical people. That means that neurotypical weaknesses are compensated for and/or not noticed or remarked upon whereas the opposite is true of autistic weaknesses. For example, one criticism I've had at work before is that I lack initiative and the fact that I had done everything asked of me to a high standard was actually used against me because I hadn't also done things that weren't in my job description and I hadn't been asked to do. This to me seems illogical and unfair but appears to make sense to every neurotypical person I've explained it to. I daresay if the ratio were reversed, if what we call neurotypical people made up 1% of the population and autistic people 99% you'd see neurotypical people struggling to find and hold down employment because again the system and culture simply wouldn't be designed to accommodate them. There's an interesting article here which imagines just such a scenario: troycamplin.medium.com/a-pathological-look-at-neurotypical-behavior-ee77d41e7e81Yes, this does concur with what I was saying in the OP. With all that checking going on and diligent research we would hardly see any disasters in the news. It appears to me they are actively got rid of in many firms for disagreeing with the majority, who made the decision on emotional grounds because it sounded good. Yes making decisions based on preconception and emotion rather than facts and logic is one aspect of neurotypical behaviour I often find frustrating and hard to understand. But ultimately they can't help the way their brains are wired anymore than I can, it's not my place to judge them. |
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Post by Orac on Apr 6, 2024 7:05:42 GMT
'The Myth of Autism: Medicalising Men's and Boys' Social and Emotional Competence' by Sami Timimi: Professor of Child Psychiatry and Mental Health Improvement at the University of Lincoln. In this book he likens the treatment some autistic people get subjected to to the way the "pre-war Germans" treated the Jews. I met Sami when he was 14. He came across to me as just about the most intelligent person I'd ever met. He gives talks in Parliament to MPs ... with the theme of how psychiatry is having a "negative influence" on the well-being of modern societies. An associate of his, Joanna Moncrieff, titled one of her publications: 'The Medicalisation of Modern Living'. This is a real thing imo. Part of what seems to be a broader attempt to pathologise masculinity - ie " if you don't spend every waking hour fretting and panicking about the status of your social network, then you are autistic." |
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Post by happyhornet on Apr 6, 2024 7:08:00 GMT
I'm not sure about autistic superpowers but based on my own observations I do think that autistic and neurotypical people have complementary strengths and weaknesses which if put together can benefit an employer. In my case I've managed to find employment which suits my personal expression of autism. I haven't carved out a successful career as a Bid Writer in spite of my autism, I've done it in part because of my autism. When it comes to autistic unemployment overall I think a big part of it is that workplaces and the working culture is set up by and for neurotypical people. That means that neurotypical weaknesses are compensated for and/or not noticed or remarked upon whereas the opposite is true of autistic weaknesses. For example, one criticism I've had at work before is that I lack initiative and the fact that I had done everything asked of me to a high standard was actually used against me because I hadn't also done things that weren't in my job description and I hadn't been asked to do. This to me seems illogical and unfair but appears to make sense to every neurotypical person I've explained it to. I daresay if the ratio were reversed, if what we call neurotypical people made up 1% of the population and autistic people 99% you'd see neurotypical people struggling to find and hold down employment because again the system and culture simply wouldn't be designed to accommodate them. There's an interesting article here which imagines just such a scenario: troycamplin.medium.com/a-pathological-look-at-neurotypical-behavior-ee77d41e7e81
This to me seems illogical and unfair but appears to make sense to every neurotypical person I've explained it to.
Criticism makes perfect sense - you lack initiative at work or in trades union terms you work to rule I wouldn't say I worked to rule. I couldn't count how many times I went above and beyond working evenings and weekends, missing out on time with my kids, time I'll never get back. I also frequently volunteered to help colleagues with their workload if I had spare capacity and I took on additional duties when asked. What I didn't do was "play the game", schmooze and kiss management backside because I was too busy doing the job I was being paid to do. |
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