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Post by Dan Dare on Apr 2, 2024 10:01:06 GMT
It's not often I find myself in agreement with Mad Mel, but in this case I do.
In an article in the Times she asks why does the debate about healthcare always assume there are only two alternatives: a totally state-run universal system like the NHS, free at the point of delivery, or private healthcare as practised in the US, which discriminates against the poor and produces at best only middling health outcomes.
There is a third way, per Mel, which is the social insurance scheme model used in other European countries. An extended extract follows since the Times has a paywall.
"...Their fundamental characteristic is that people pay compulsory contributions to healthcare providers, with additional contributions by employers and employees. Unlike private insurers, social insurers must accept everyone regardless of age or health status, and contributions are pooled to cover all.
The details vary from country to country. In France, one large insurer covers virtually the whole population. In the Netherlands and Germany, people choose between a number of insurance systems.
...
Above all, the system is accountable to the public. Health staff aren’t looking upwards to a chain of command subject to the interfering incompetence of politicians. Their focus instead is on the patients they serve, whose money creates strong incentives for healthcare providers to develop services that patients actually want and need. It is astonishing that this desirable alternative is never mentioned. The reason is that the NHS is deemed totemic and politically untouchable.
This may be beginning to change. Figures produced last week by the King’s Fund and Nuffield Trust suggested that only a quarter of the British public believe that the health service is working. People said they felt trapped in a “toxic relationship” with an institution they nevertheless still supported in principle.
They still support it because of the emotional attachment to the NHS as one of the last public sources of national pride. But despite the heroic service of so many of its staff, the service is failing far too many of the most vulnerable, particularly the poor who can’t afford to “go private”.
This isn’t just about availability of treatment or lack of adequate funding. There have been too many epic failures of basic care and compassion. From 2005 to 2009 at Stafford Hospital, between 400 and 1,200 patients died after suffering neglect such as being left unwashed, food and drink being placed out of their reach, and having calls for help to use the toilet ignored.
Fifteen years ago, thousands of patients on the Liverpool Care Pathway for patients deemed to be dying — although a number of them were not — were deprived of medication, food and fluids, even when they begged for food or water.
Between 2009 and 2020 at the East Kent Hospitals Trust, dozens of babies and mothers died or were injured during childbirth because of repeated failings in maternity care. Given the manifold failings of the NHS, politicians’ heartfelt declarations of commitment to it as the symbol of British decency have become so much cant and humbug."
She's damned right.
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Post by wapentake on Apr 2, 2024 10:10:59 GMT
Excellent post,something does need to be done because the nhs is a shambles and the US alternative even more frightening for those without the cash.
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Post by thescotsman on Apr 2, 2024 10:58:21 GMT
It's not often I find myself in agreement with Mad Mel, but in this case I do.
In an article in the Times she asks why does the debate about healthcare always assume there are only two alternatives: a totally state-run universal system like the NHS, free at the point of delivery, or private healthcare as practised in the US, which discriminates against the poor and produces at best only middling health outcomes.
There is a third way, per Mel, which is the social insurance scheme model used in other European countries. An extended extract follows since the Times has a paywall.
"...Their fundamental characteristic is that people pay compulsory contributions to healthcare providers, with additional contributions by employers and employees. Unlike private insurers, social insurers must accept everyone regardless of age or health status, and contributions are pooled to cover all.
The details vary from country to country. In France, one large insurer covers virtually the whole population. In the Netherlands and Germany, people choose between a number of insurance systems.
...
Above all, the system is accountable to the public. Health staff aren’t looking upwards to a chain of command subject to the interfering incompetence of politicians. Their focus instead is on the patients they serve, whose money creates strong incentives for healthcare providers to develop services that patients actually want and need. It is astonishing that this desirable alternative is never mentioned. The reason is that the NHS is deemed totemic and politically untouchable.
This may be beginning to change. Figures produced last week by the King’s Fund and Nuffield Trust suggested that only a quarter of the British public believe that the health service is working. People said they felt trapped in a “toxic relationship” with an institution they nevertheless still supported in principle.
They still support it because of the emotional attachment to the NHS as one of the last public sources of national pride. But despite the heroic service of so many of its staff, the service is failing far too many of the most vulnerable, particularly the poor who can’t afford to “go private”.
This isn’t just about availability of treatment or lack of adequate funding. There have been too many epic failures of basic care and compassion. From 2005 to 2009 at Stafford Hospital, between 400 and 1,200 patients died after suffering neglect such as being left unwashed, food and drink being placed out of their reach, and having calls for help to use the toilet ignored.
Fifteen years ago, thousands of patients on the Liverpool Care Pathway for patients deemed to be dying — although a number of them were not — were deprived of medication, food and fluids, even when they begged for food or water.
Between 2009 and 2020 at the East Kent Hospitals Trust, dozens of babies and mothers died or were injured during childbirth because of repeated failings in maternity care. Given the manifold failings of the NHS, politicians’ heartfelt declarations of commitment to it as the symbol of British decency have become so much cant and humbug."
She's damned right.
I vote for the German system...all the kids were born there my appendix blew apart there...we were all well looked after by the HEK... My lad always had issues with his tonsils and about a month after we got back from Hamburg he got it bad again. The GP took one look said they were badly infected and based on his history they needed to come out but then explained there was a 9 month waiting list? I didn't really know what a waiting list was having been living for over a decade in Germany. Anyway it dawned on me that we hadn't cancelled the HEK coverage yet so I got on a plane and took him back to Hamburg and saw his pediatrician. He took one look and called hospital booked him in and the next morning he was operated on. I remember explaining to the pediatrician about this waiting list thing and he just laughed. Anyway one of my biggest bug bears about being back in the UK is the abysmal medical care we get. I have a mate who's a consultant surgeon at K+C...the place is an absolute nightmare...the hospital trust is going bankrupt so they hired a bunch of external consultants to look into cost cutting and one bright spark thought it'd be great to bulk buy from India. Kit started to appear that was basically so cheap and nasty it was effectively useless - theater equipment like would arrive in huge boxes one example he said was scalples would arrive in a box of 1000 the box being sealed and sterilised but the individual scalples weren't, so as soon as you opened the box to use one sterlised scalple the remaining 999 were unsterile. Anyway this wasn't an issue for the cost cutters as they had done their job and reduced costs and duly received a bonus...yay!!! Fucking madness |
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Post by bancroft on Apr 2, 2024 14:13:06 GMT
Glad I went alternative, late 50s and still doing exercise that would shock those in their 20s.
I think there is a postcode lottery in health provisions yet let's remember they still have not found the cure for cancer despite publicity for decades they were going to find a cure.
Those in the know realise different factors can cause the same cancer as each of us reacts differently to environmental or dietary factors.
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Post by Handyman on Apr 2, 2024 17:42:44 GMT
Yes the NHS is badly run, the German System is very organised, I think most European countries have a system where each adult has to pay for Medical Insurance to cover costs of treatment as well as some money from their Government raised by taxation
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Post by Dan Dare on Apr 2, 2024 18:21:11 GMT
In France you not only have to pay social insurance but in many cases you have to pay at least a nominal amount towards treatment as well. For example, the government-mandated fee to see your GP is € 26.50. Most of this will be reimbursed automatically if you have an entitlement card issued by your insurance, the so-called Carte Vitale.
If your income is below a minimum level, or if you suffer from one of around 20 chronic ailments (eg heart disease or diabetes), all treatment will be free.
The above comments about the absence of 'waitlists' in Germany apply to France as well.
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Post by Cartertonian on Apr 2, 2024 19:06:41 GMT
It's not often I find myself in agreement with Mad Mel, but in this case I do.
It's not often I find myself in agreement with Mad Mel or Dan Dare..., but in this case I do. |
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ginnyg2
Full Member
Don't blame me - I voted for someone else.
Posts: 402
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Post by ginnyg2 on Apr 3, 2024 8:05:23 GMT
^^^^
That's a lot of bandwidth for a short answer!
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Post by Dan Dare on Apr 3, 2024 9:09:10 GMT
Carty once intimated on the old forum that he tended to avoid my posts because he felt they were intended to function like giant elephant traps for unwary proggies, so discretion being the better part of valour, he declined to engage.
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Post by seniorcitizen007 on Apr 3, 2024 21:49:57 GMT
Denmark is reputed to have the best health service in Europe. I'm friendly with the son of a former local doctor who is now working in Denmark. His father left because he was fed up with not getting the info he needed about his patients from the hospitals. I've met several people locally who were promptly sent straight back to hospital after their GPs studied the test results that the hospital doctors thought warranted discharge. Not all GPs are so diligent.
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Post by johnofgwent on Apr 5, 2024 10:59:15 GMT
Looking back about 30 years I recall I needed an operation and faced a massive wait but a mate of mine suggest I pay to see a consultant privately. I mentioned this to my GP who referred me for nothing, the consultation cost £75 for a 30 minute slot after which the consultant said yes, you need an operation, I can do it here at this private clinic for £3500 or I can do it in a fortnight down the road on my NHS list for nothing, it makes no difference to me which you choose.
£75 boosted me over the entire NHS queue to see the consultant and got me at the back of his 14 day operating list
That option vanished fairly soon after that, but twenty years ago Barclays offered, and I took up, a family private health plan that offered me private health care if none was available inside six weeks on the NHS.
My youngest had the first of two ops she needed to reverse the damage done by a right thug of a jealous school bully that way
I had need of the scheme when my Achilles tendon was damaged, and again with heart problems but that drained the outpatient clinic fee allowance faster than you could possibly imagine leaving me thousands in debt
My daughter had a second op, this time on her knee, in an English hybrid NHS / Private day surgery centre near Yate north of Bristol when the Englush NHS realised tbe Wrlsh NHS were so incompetent and wasteful they coukd build such centres near the Welsh border and make a profit from offering Welsh GPs with fundholding powers slots at those centres to carry out minor ops at prices above those English GPs were charged.
Much of the private sector is unreachable to me now, even if I wanted it. When I joined the bank in 2020 I turned down the health plan option citing the debts the last one got me in. The Bank closed their healthcare plan last year because stratospheric premium hikes made everyone pull out
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Post by Handyman on Apr 5, 2024 19:06:57 GMT
You can have a better NHS all you have to do is tell your MP no matter which Party they belong to to stop using the NHS to score Pollical Points with it and address its problems make it more efficient, better organised, stop people abusing the system, cut out the waste, and keep doing it until they listen to you, throwing more money at it will not solve its problems never has never will
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