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Post by see2 on Dec 10, 2022 13:45:47 GMT
Why not try staying on subject, then people could see your wisdom instead of crap like this . ↓↓↓ Sheepy Wrote: Now you have to squirm your way out of that. Sad but true. Because that is exactly what you did, because you couldn't face the fact, that globally speaking Brown knew the economy was changed to a service economy to create global impacts. Which in turn the public were at the mercy of global recession and global boom and bust. The Service economy is just a part of the economy. Globalisation began as the world came together following WWII. It was originally covered by the French word La mondialisation (or La mundialisation). |
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Post by see2 on Dec 10, 2022 13:57:02 GMT
Are you seriously trying to claim that interest rates are not used to control inflation and that inflation is nothing to do with boom and bust? That's a bit of stretched straw-man isn't it? I'm saying that we know what 'boom and bust' refers to and has referred to for decades (if not centuries). Your charts are an irrelevancy here. International boom and bust such as the 1930s and 2008 is pretty out of our control. There is nothing new about the natural variations in the business cycle that is not in dispute. What is in dispute is governments USING boom and bust conditions in order to control our home UK economy. And that was common practice prior handing control to the BoE. Who perhaps should be better at keeping the economy under reasonable control. |
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Post by Toreador on Dec 10, 2022 14:06:13 GMT
That's a bit of stretched straw-man isn't it? I'm saying that we know what 'boom and bust' refers to and has referred to for decades (if not centuries). Your charts are an irrelevancy here. International boom and bust such as the 1930s and 2008 is pretty out of our control. There is nothing new about the natural variations in the business cycle that is not in dispute. What is in dispute is governments USING boom and bust conditions in order to control our home UK economy. And that was common practice prior handing control to the BoE. Who perhaps should be better at keeping the economy under reasonable control. No matter how many explanations anyone tries to find, boom and bust is the result of poor government right across the world; they are the oners charged with running a country and its economy and they're a conniving bunch of assholes, whetever the party. |
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Post by Orac on Dec 10, 2022 14:17:19 GMT
International boom and bust such as the 1930s and 2008 is pretty out of our control. There is nothing new about the natural variations in the business cycle that is not in dispute. In which case this part of the discussion is over, and so, would you kindly stop idiotically trying to pretend Gordon Brown was referring to something else when he used the term 'boom and bust' What is in dispute is governments USING boom and bust conditions in order to control our home UK economy. I never said that they didn't. What i disputed was the claim that the last decade or so of low, zero - and sometimes even negative - interest rates, was a reflection of solid reality of a market economy, rather than drawn from artificially / politically constructed situation - ie a managed economy. Clearly it is the latter. |
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Post by Orac on Dec 10, 2022 14:22:28 GMT
No matter how many explanations anyone tries to find, boom and bust is the result of poor government right across the world; they are the oners charged with running a country and its economy and they're a conniving bunch of assholes, whetever the party. This raises an interesting point. In my view the boom bust cycle is the one thing that is significantly outside government control. Imho a solution has technically been found, but for various political reasons, governments are unable / unwilling to use it. |
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Post by Toreador on Dec 10, 2022 14:53:43 GMT
No matter how many explanations anyone tries to find, boom and bust is the result of poor government right across the world; they are the oners charged with running a country and its economy and they're a conniving bunch of assholes, whetever the party. This raises an interesting point. In my view the boom bust cycle is the one thing that is significantly outside government control. Imho a solution has technically been found, but for various political reasons, governments are unable / unwilling to use it. However you try to twist it, it comes down to the same as I said, governments are charged with running the country and the economy. |
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Post by zanygame on Dec 10, 2022 15:39:22 GMT
I would argue that prior to Brown's changes, Conservatives did not use interest rates to control boom and bust, they used boom and bust as an excuse to hike interest rates and line the nests of the rich.
Once the BofE took control in 1997 we had a decade of stability with tiny variations in interest and inflation rates. This continued until we had a world crash in 2008 which was beyond any governments control.
I'm pretty sure that had the Conservatives had control of interest rates in 2010 we would have seen them hiked up to 15+% to 'help the economy' This would have refilled the bank vaults at the cost of small business and the public. Nice.
Mags can allude to her mysterious version of the 'business cycle' but unless she tells us what it is I will continue to believe its effects can be mitigated by the use of interest rates, but that small changes are enough to control it and that the huge hikes the Tories used were about greed.
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Post by see2 on Dec 10, 2022 17:06:05 GMT
International boom and bust such as the 1930s and 2008 is pretty out of our control. There is nothing new about the natural variations in the business cycle that is not in dispute. What is in dispute is governments USING boom and bust conditions in order to control our home UK economy. And that was common practice prior handing control to the BoE. Who perhaps should be better at keeping the economy under reasonable control. No matter how many explanations anyone tries to find, boom and bust is the result of poor government right across the world; they are the oners charged with running a country and its economy and they're a conniving bunch of assholes, whetever the party. Brown's "Boom and Bust" was and is about self inflicted boom and bust done deliberately by both Labour and Conservative governments prior to NL changing the system. No One has control over international financial meltdowns especially when they come out of the blue with no prior warnings as in 2007/08. That is the reality, so those who blame Brown for the problem are deluding themselves. |
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Post by sheepy on Dec 10, 2022 17:06:17 GMT
International boom and bust such as the 1930s and 2008 is pretty out of our control. There is nothing new about the natural variations in the business cycle that is not in dispute. In which case this part of the discussion is over, and so, would you kindly stop idiotically trying to pretend Gordon Brown was referring to something else when he used the term 'boom and bust' What is in dispute is governments USING boom and bust conditions in order to control our home UK economy. I never said that they didn't. What i disputed was the claim that the last decade or so of low, zero - and sometimes even negative - interest rates, was a reflection of solid reality of a market economy, rather than drawn from artificially / politically constructed situation - ie a managed economy. Clearly it is the latter. They haven't mentioned yet Gordon Brown is actually putting a plan forward for even more globalisation. Some people never learn, they have the bumper book of excuses for causing suffering even their own. |
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Post by Toreador on Dec 10, 2022 17:17:17 GMT
No matter how many explanations anyone tries to find, boom and bust is the result of poor government right across the world; they are the oners charged with running a country and its economy and they're a conniving bunch of assholes, whetever the party. Brown's "Boom and Bust" was and is about self inflicted boom and bust done deliberately by both Labour and Conservative governments prior to NL changing the system. No One has control over international financial meltdowns especially when they come out of the blue with no prior warnings as in 2007/08. That is the reality, so those who blame Brown for the problem are deluding themselves. We've been here before and no one will ever convince me that international finacial meltdowns come out of the blue, es[ecially when warnings are inherent in the system that causes them. Do you honestly believe there were people in the upper echelons of finance and governmentsa who weren't aware of wehat was about to happen and that their first priority was to save their own backsides. |
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Post by zanygame on Dec 10, 2022 17:46:37 GMT
In which case this part of the discussion is over, and so, would you kindly stop idiotically trying to pretend Gordon Brown was referring to something else when he used the term 'boom and bust' I never said that they didn't. What i disputed was the claim that the last decade or so of low, zero - and sometimes even negative - interest rates, was a reflection of solid reality of a market economy, rather than drawn from artificially / politically constructed situation - ie a managed economy. Clearly it is the latter. They haven't mentioned yet Gordon Brown is actually putting a plan forward for even more globalisation. Some people never learn, they have the bumper book of excuses for causing suffering even their own. Well lets mention it now. He worked towards common regulatory standards since taken up by both the EU and the States, but laughably now being reduced by the Tories. |
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Post by Pacifico on Dec 10, 2022 18:06:44 GMT
International boom and bust such as the 1930s and 2008 is pretty out of our control. There is nothing new about the natural variations in the business cycle that is not in dispute. What is in dispute is governments USING boom and bust conditions in order to control our home UK economy. And that was common practice prior handing control to the BoE. Who perhaps should be better at keeping the economy under reasonable control. No matter how many explanations anyone tries to find, boom and bust is the result of poor government right across the world; they are the oners charged with running a country and its economy and they're a conniving bunch of assholes, whetever the party. The trouble with the 'it's a worldwide boom and bust' argument is that different countries were effected differently due to the decisions taking by their respective governments.. Some countries saw banks go bust and need bailing out due to lax domestic regulation and others didnt see a single financial institution collapse due to the years of prudent regulation. So even in a worldwide economic turmoil it is decisions taken domestically that affect how badly a country is impacted. Or you could go with the argument to save Crash Gordon that governments are all helpless bystanders...  |
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Post by Orac on Dec 10, 2022 18:16:11 GMT
I'm pretty sure that had the Conservatives had control of interest rates in 2010 we would have seen them hiked up to 15+% to 'help the economy' This would have refilled the bank vaults at the cost of small business and the public. If you raise interest rates, this is quite likely to reduce paper value of assets held by the rich. Have you noticed during major monetary contractions, banks occasionally go bankrupt? How do they manage that trick while 'filling their vaults'? You have an almost upside down conspiracy theory. Zero interest rates, of course, screws another group. Mags can allude to her mysterious version of the 'business cycle' but unless she tells us what it is Look up 'the business cycle' - it really is no secret |
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Post by Orac on Dec 10, 2022 18:35:13 GMT
Some countries saw banks go bust and need bailing out due to lax domestic regulation and others didnt see a single financial institution collapse due to the years of prudent regulation. So even in a worldwide economic turmoil it is decisions taken domestically that affect how badly a country is impacted. Or you could go with the argument to save Crash Gordon that governments are all helpless bystanders... Indeed . Individual government can't really stop the cycle itself, but that doesn't mean they are entirely powerless. Brown was repeatedly warned about the vulnerability of the UK economy, but he seemed immune to reason - "we have entered a new paradigm in which the old rules no longer apply." I remember this lunacy very clearly. |
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Post by see2 on Dec 10, 2022 18:36:05 GMT
International boom and bust such as the 1930s and 2008 is pretty out of our control. There is nothing new about the natural variations in the business cycle that is not in dispute. In which case this part of the discussion is over, and so, would you kindly stop idiotically trying to pretend Gordon Brown was referring to something else when he used the term 'boom and bust' What is in dispute is governments USING boom and bust conditions in order to control our home UK economy. I never said that they didn't. What i disputed was the claim that the last decade or so of low, zero - and sometimes even negative - interest rates, was a reflection of solid reality of a market economy, rather than drawn from artificially / politically constructed situation - ie a managed economy. Clearly it is the latter. Your injected part of the discussion is over. Brown was not in office during the "last decade or so" |
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