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Post by steppenwolf on Feb 22, 2024 13:41:18 GMT
I don't like any form of religious exemption from the laws of the land - for whatever reason. They should all be scrapped. If the muslims (or anyone else) don't like it they can live elsewhere. The manner of slaughter should be dictated purely by what's the most humane way to slaughter animal.
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Post by patman post on Feb 22, 2024 14:17:06 GMT
According to the RSPCA, around 65% of animals slaughtered in the UK for Halal are stunned first. All animals slaughtered under the Shechita (for Kosher) are non-stunned. RSPCA view on non-religious slaughter indicates all is not as you might wish it: Stunning of large animals
There's a risk that some cattle, pigs and sheep may not be stunned effectively, causing them to regain consciousness before they die from blood loss. For stunning to be effective, it's vital that:
The stunning equipment is working properly - it should be regularly checked and maintained
The stunning equipment is positioned correctly on the animal's head/head and back
Enough current is applied during electrical stunning, for a long enough period
The correct cartridge is used to fire the captive bolt during captive bolt stunning
The time between stunning and sticking isn't too long, to prevent animals from regaining consciousness
Stunning of poultry
There are complex problems surrounding the stunning of poultry. We're particularly concerned about the use of electric water bath systems, as these involve the painful shackling of live birds. The way they're designed can result in some birds missing the water bath stunner, or receiving painful pre-stun shocks as they enter the stunner.
This system can also mean that there's not enough electrical current flowing through the bird's body to ensure it's unconscious. They can also be designed so that birds passing through an automatic neck cutter only receive a single cut to the neck, which reduces the rate of blood loss.
What's more, this system can result in birds accidentally missing the automatic neck cutter. If these birds aren't noticed by the slaughter person, they may still be alive when entering the scalding tank - a tank of boiling water that helps to loosen the feathers prior to plucking.
We're also concerned about gas-killing systems, as these can mean that conscious birds may be exposed to highly aversive levels of carbon dioxide gas.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2024 15:07:38 GMT
That's an oppositional stance to that taken by Mr Black&White. You are completely agnostic, apparently, on the matter and don't care how animals are slaughtered, whereas he is implacably opposed to halal while being comparatively relaxed about schechita. (Although so far he hasn't managed to explain why).
Both of course are allowed to continue to perform their ritual slaughter unimpeded by the authorities thanks to exemptions granted to the Animal Welfare Acts.
Kosher food is not just about animal slaughter. It is about what foods can be eaten together, too. Halal food has had an Imam pray over it during slaughter and the slaughter is done in a particular way. Kosher food doesn't need anyone praying over it, unless the person consuming it decides to give thanks. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Feb 22, 2024 15:13:52 GMT
The reason I asked about crumpets etc is that if you buy Warburtons crumpets and have them with Lurpak butter and Tiptree's jam then you eating food that has been Koshered. That is, the companies that produce those products have paid for a rabbinical inspection and can display an appropriate symbol on their packaging to indicate their approval. I'm not sure whether there's any praying as part of the process but there's certainly some paying going on.
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Post by Dan Dare on Feb 22, 2024 15:20:26 GMT
I don't like any form of religious exemption from the laws of the land - for whatever reason. They should all be scrapped. If the muslims (or anyone else) don't like it they can live elsewhere. The manner of slaughter should be dictated purely by what's the most humane way to slaughter animal. The problem is that if you remove exemptions from the Muslims then you're going to have to do it for Jews too.
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Post by patman post on Feb 22, 2024 15:44:45 GMT
That's an oppositional stance to that taken by Mr Black&White. You are completely agnostic, apparently, on the matter and don't care how animals are slaughtered, whereas he is implacably opposed to halal while being comparatively relaxed about schechita. (Although so far he hasn't managed to explain why).
Both of course are allowed to continue to perform their ritual slaughter unimpeded by the authorities thanks to exemptions granted to the Animal Welfare Acts.
Kosher food is not just about animal slaughter. It is about what foods can be eaten together, too. Halal food has had an Imam pray over it during slaughter and the slaughter is done in a particular way. Kosher food doesn't need anyone praying over it, unless the person consuming it decides to give thanks. I believe that animals slaughtered for food under Kosher rules cannot be stunned, while Halal meat can be from stunned animals.
I doubt the absence of prayer alters the animal's experience of slaughter...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2024 15:49:33 GMT
Kosher food is not just about animal slaughter. It is about what foods can be eaten together, too. Halal food has had an Imam pray over it during slaughter and the slaughter is done in a particular way. Kosher food doesn't need anyone praying over it, unless the person consuming it decides to give thanks. I believe that animals slaughtered for food under Kosher rules cannot be stunned, while Halal meat can be from stunned animals.
I doubt the absence of prayer alters the animal's experience of slaughter...
I don't think it takes long to bleed to death when held upside down and throat cut. Not much suffering involved. Dead is dead. |
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Post by patman post on Feb 22, 2024 16:07:09 GMT
I believe that animals slaughtered for food under Kosher rules cannot be stunned, while Halal meat can be from stunned animals.
I doubt the absence of prayer alters the animal's experience of slaughter...
I don't think it takes long to bleed to death when held upside down and throat cut. Not much suffering involved. Dead is dead. RSPCA says:
We believe that all animals should be stunned before slaughter. Evidence shows that slaughter without pre-stunning can cause unneeded suffering.
We oppose the slaughter of any animal without first ensuring it's unable to feel pain and distress.
Nothing attributed to the power of prayer in that...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2024 16:08:54 GMT
I don't think it takes long to bleed to death when held upside down and throat cut. Not much suffering involved. Dead is dead. RSPCA says:
We believe that all animals should be stunned before slaughter. Evidence shows that slaughter without pre-stunning can cause unneeded suffering.
We oppose the slaughter of any animal without first ensuring it's unable to feel pain and distress.
Nothing attributed to the power of prayer in that...
You seem obsessed with prayer. If the RSPCA say they should be stunned, so be it, Pat. But dead is still dead. |
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Post by patman post on Feb 22, 2024 16:43:24 GMT
RSPCA says:
We believe that all animals should be stunned before slaughter. Evidence shows that slaughter without pre-stunning can cause unneeded suffering.
We oppose the slaughter of any animal without first ensuring it's unable to feel pain and distress.
Nothing attributed to the power of prayer in that...
You seem obsessed with prayer. If the RSPCA say they should be stunned, so be it, Pat. But dead is still dead. Prayer is a requirement of both Halal and Kosher slaughter — so I guess it's important to both beliefs.
However, I'd prefer if stunning was guaranteed before slaughter. But as the RSPCA points out, there can't currently be a 100% guarantee even from non-religious slaughterhouses. So if only either Halal or Kosher meat or poultry is available, I won't refuse it.
Otherwise, the only live creatures I eat are oysters...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2024 19:33:30 GMT
Oysters are definitely not Kosher! Enjoy!
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Post by steppenwolf on Feb 23, 2024 8:02:14 GMT
I don't like any form of religious exemption from the laws of the land - for whatever reason. They should all be scrapped. If the muslims (or anyone else) don't like it they can live elsewhere. The manner of slaughter should be dictated purely by what's the most humane way to slaughter animal. The problem is that if you remove exemptions from the Muslims then you're going to have to do it for Jews too.
I'm not sure that "Kosher" involves things that are illegal, unlike halal. The thing that I object to is that halal involves killing animals without stunning, which is regarded as inhumane by our law. But basically I'm against ANY exemptions from UK law for religious reasons - whatever the religion. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Feb 23, 2024 8:07:58 GMT
What is illegal about halal?
I think you have the stunning thing the wrong way round. It is halal that claims to perform 'selective' stunning while schechita (Kosher) does not allow it at all.
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Post by steppenwolf on Feb 24, 2024 8:59:03 GMT
In practice halal meat is slaughtered by bleeding the animal out without stunning. Some is stunned but most not. If Kosher meat is not stunned than I'd ban that too. As I said, ANYTHING that doesn't abide by the law should be banned - that's what laws are for. All slaughter is monitored by CCTV now but as usual the govt doesn't bother to monitor the CCTV. The muslims do what they want.
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Post by Dan Dare on Feb 24, 2024 10:22:10 GMT
But halal slaughter (and kosher) are perfectly legal in the UK, if not in some other European countries.
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