|
|
Post by Baron von Lotsov on Feb 9, 2024 19:55:01 GMT
Lets look at some real results. First of all there is some terminology.
COP = Coefficient of Performance i.e. the factor by which a heat pump outperforms a standard electric heater, e.g. a fan heater. Take one unit of energy and we see gas is about 1/3 of the price, so we need a COP of 3 to break even on running costs. There is also another measure which is similar to COP, but accounts for the overall difference, including the hot water which you also need to change if you are not using a gas boiler for it. Unfortunately in the video the chap gives a poor definition, but I understand it to mean this is the parameter you need to work out the difference in your final bills, so with our example if the overall performance were 3 and the gas is 1/3 of the price then we are even. This is called SCOP, and the S is for seasonal, so it accounts for seasons(?)
Anyway, the final result over the year ranges from 3.4 to 5.1.
There's a long discussion on how this was achieved, but in this part we get a discussion on the figures.
Reasons why this is higher than some find, as per some people have reported COP of 2, is the new ones have compressors which have variable drives, so they can be on all the time at a lower speed rather than cycling on and off at their full rate. Further efficiency savings can be manifested with a scientific approach, using a computer to optimise the installation. This installer is pretty advanced in their use LIDAR to scan the dimensions of each room and feed the layout of the house into a program which will simulate what will happen. I'm impressed with that. Very clever indeed.
Of course on the negative side is the increased costs over a gas boiler. I suggest the solution here is to make them reliable enough to last 50 years like the old gas boilers did, with parts being easily serviceable. Another saving is if you fit them into new builds so you can figure it all out to optimise it in the design of the house. As they become mass market the cost will go down significantly, maybe half.
I suggest that when the costs are actually cheaper there is not any enforcement required.
|
|
|
|
Post by Baron von Lotsov on Feb 10, 2024 15:49:29 GMT
I've been having a little think about this since I think the technology is being unfairly criticised due to the way it is being forced upon us. The Skill Builder channel is not a politics channel and is generally good balanced advice on all matters to do with builders. They have shown failed heat pump installations as well as ones that work. What seemed to be the problem was when the government introduced grants for these things they got totally over-subscribed and the large grant encouraged cowboys to fit them who has no education in the complexities of the system. This is an example of government intervention in the market, and the problem with that is you have a kind of discontinuity, going from very few heat pumps being installed with only a few experienced work men to all of a sudden creating a step-change in demand the market could not respond to. You can't just magic up 10x the number of engineers. It takes years of training. Ditto for heat pump manufacturers who built heat pumps which failed in cold weather due to icing.
Anyhow this heat pump will work down to -7C outside temperature, which is the lowest temperature I've experienced so far this winter, so at least for this country they are now a viable option. If you stop forcing people to buy them then they will save you more money on average. People will not buy something which loses them money, so force means economic loss. Compare to a situation where only people buy them who want them. These are going to be the cases where they perform well. As they perform well and the reports come back positive, so this creates more demand, the economy of scale also lowers the price and so the market builds up all by itself. The market is far more intelligent than government fuckwits.
|
|
|
|
Post by Red Rackham on Feb 10, 2024 17:38:11 GMT
Not this old chestnut again. BvL, the reason heat pumps are cheaper to run (Although a lot more expensive to install) than gas boilers, is because they dont bloody work. They are unsuitable for the vast majority of UK housing stock. How many times must we do this?
|
|
|
|
Post by Baron von Lotsov on Feb 10, 2024 17:55:39 GMT
Not this old chestnut again. BvL, the reason heat pumps are cheaper to run (Although a lot more expensive to install) than gas boilers, is because they dont bloody work. They are unsuitable for the vast majority of UK housing stock. How many times must we do this? You are just wrong. The chap in the video has a heat pump that is saving him money.
The fact is you are lied to by dishonest media.
|
|
|
|
Post by Red Rackham on Feb 10, 2024 18:02:10 GMT
Not this old chestnut again. BvL, the reason heat pumps are cheaper to run (Although a lot more expensive to install) than gas boilers, is because they dont bloody work. They are unsuitable for the vast majority of UK housing stock. How many times must we do this? You are just wrong. The chap in the video has a heat pump that is saving him money.
The fact is you are lied to by dishonest media.
Sorry BvL I'm not doing this again. I have provided many links is similar threads that show that heat pumps are not an economical option for the majority of households in this country. |
|
|
|
Post by Pacifico on Feb 10, 2024 18:13:10 GMT
If heatpumps were cheaper than gas then people would be voluntarily fitting them and the taxpayer would not need to be subsidising the damn things.
|
|
|
|
Post by Baron von Lotsov on Feb 10, 2024 18:44:37 GMT
If heatpumps were cheaper than gas then people would be voluntarily fitting them and the taxpayer would not need to be subsidising the damn things. They are no where near as cheap as a gas boiler and tax payers are subsidising those that buy them to the tune of £7500. The subsidies keep the price of these things sky high. It's just another fuckup. Besides if you look at what you get, it's just a big compressor and some heat exchanger. |
|
|
|
Post by Red Rackham on Feb 10, 2024 19:43:36 GMT
BvL, from a previous thread. Quote... EXCLUSIVE The great heat pump revolt: From couple forced to use plug in radiators after waiting five months for broken device to be fixed, to man who had to install log-fired boiler after waking up every morning to a cold house - linkSix reasons not to buy a heat pump - linkHeat pumps leave some homes so cold people are ripping them out - linkMan facing £7k a year energy bills wants to 'rip out' government-backed heat pump that's 'left home cold' - link Why heat pumps will never work in Britain - linkThe Heat Pump Con - linkBosch tells homeowners heat pumps don’t work in old homes - linkEtc etc etc... |
|
|
|
Post by Baron von Lotsov on Feb 10, 2024 19:56:12 GMT
BvL, from a previous thread. Quote... EXCLUSIVE The great heat pump revolt: From couple forced to use plug in radiators after waiting five months for broken device to be fixed, to man who had to install log-fired boiler after waking up every morning to a cold house - linkSix reasons not to buy a heat pump - linkHeat pumps leave some homes so cold people are ripping them out - linkMan facing £7k a year energy bills wants to 'rip out' government-backed heat pump that's 'left home cold' - link Why heat pumps will never work in Britain - linkThe Heat Pump Con - linkBosch tells homeowners heat pumps don’t work in old homes - linkEtc etc etc... Oh indeed there are loads of fuckups in modern Britain. Watch the video I gave you and the previous one in the series on his channel to see how they did it. It will impress you. These Plumb Tom people know what they are doing. Mail/Evening News cretins do not. This is technical.
The chap is getting his system to be over 400% efficient on average. The thing is the grid is not up to it if everyone installed one so that would be my priority in government. 50GW of solar energy applications are waiting on the turds to fix it up. This would bring the cost of electricity down in relation to gas and lower the sale price of heat pumps without the taxpayer robbery. Why should I pay for someone else's heat pump? Where is the justice in that?
|
|
|
|
Post by Pacifico on Feb 10, 2024 23:01:17 GMT
If heatpumps were cheaper than gas then people would be voluntarily fitting them and the taxpayer would not need to be subsidising the damn things. They are no where near as cheap as a gas boiler and tax payers are subsidising those that buy them to the tune of £7500. The subsidies keep the price of these things sky high. It's just another fuckup. Besides if you look at what you get, it's just a big compressor and some heat exchanger. Where do I apply for a subsidy on my new gas boiler? |
|
|
|
Post by jonksy on Feb 11, 2024 0:43:03 GMT
BvL, from a previous thread. Quote... EXCLUSIVE The great heat pump revolt: From couple forced to use plug in radiators after waiting five months for broken device to be fixed, to man who had to install log-fired boiler after waking up every morning to a cold house - linkSix reasons not to buy a heat pump - linkHeat pumps leave some homes so cold people are ripping them out - linkMan facing £7k a year energy bills wants to 'rip out' government-backed heat pump that's 'left home cold' - link Why heat pumps will never work in Britain - linkThe Heat Pump Con - linkBosch tells homeowners heat pumps don’t work in old homes - linkEtc etc etc... Whenever I see these posts form BVL I just stoke up the log burner and ride it out mate. |
|
|
|
Post by Red Rackham on Feb 11, 2024 1:02:49 GMT
Whenever I see these posts form BVL I just stoke up the log burner and ride it out mate. Log burners are nice, and once fitted they are certainly economical to run. Current heat pumps are large, noisy, expensive and uneconomical for the vast majority, and the thing is, they will be obsolete in as little as 20 years. This tech is moving fast, current heat pumps are a first step nothing more. Remember first generation smart metres? For a few years they were supposed to be the best thing since sliced bread and we were all encouraged to get one fitted. Then the second generation or smets 2 smart metre came out, and people with the first generation smart metre suddenly discovered they couldn't change suppliers and suppliers wouldn't change their so called smart meters. The 'latest' tech isn't the latest for very long these days. If I still had a log burner I'd defo stick with it. |
|
|
|
Post by Baron von Lotsov on Feb 11, 2024 3:03:52 GMT
Whenever I see these posts form BVL I just stoke up the log burner and ride it out mate. Log burners are nice, and once fitted they are certainly economical to run. Current heat pumps are large, noisy, expensive and uneconomical for the vast majority, and the thing is, they will be obsolete in as little as 20 years. This tech is moving fast, current heat pumps are a first step nothing more. Remember first generation smart metres? For a few years they were supposed to be the best thing since sliced bread and we were all encouraged to get one fitted. Then the second generation or smets 2 smart metre came out, and people with the first generation smart metre suddenly discovered they couldn't change suppliers and suppliers wouldn't change their so called smart meters. The 'latest' tech isn't the latest for very long these days. If I still had a log burner I'd defo stick with it. Some British guy has invented a totally new type of compressor which uses a lot less energy and it lasts a great deal longer because it does not use standard bearings, so nothing to wear out. It's the first new type of compressor for hundreds of years. Chances are the British firms will completely ignore it and it will go to waste. Anyway, I'm just saying I'm convinced this heat pump lark is going to end up better than what we use at the moment. It's just in the process of crossing that line. It will become feasible for more and more people as time goes on, but better this way, because we just don't have the capacity to do it all at once. These politicians are economics idiots. |
|
|
|
Post by Baron von Lotsov on Feb 12, 2024 2:31:11 GMT
£600/year to heat a 3-bedroom detached house without solar. The efficiency is 5x and in fact higher than the manufacturer's rating!
Because he did it properly.
|
|
|
|
Post by steppenwolf on Feb 12, 2024 9:07:57 GMT
The problem with BvL is that he can't tell the difference between mature, working technology and technology that might work some time in the future. He reads some bollocks on the internet about some new technology and he assumes that it'll be in production next month - but most of this stuff will NEVER make it to production. And the bottom line is that the Govt should not mandate technology that simple DOES NOT work for most people - like heat pumps and BEVs.
The govt are as bad as BvL. They just think that if they pass a law then the "scientists" will come to their rescue and make some breakthrough. Sometimes it's not that easy. I don't think BEVs will ever work for most people and the same goes for heat pumps.
I had a new gas boiler fitted last year and I asked the fitter about heat pumps. He said that they just don't work for most houses - and even for those that they do work for they're very complex to fit. To do it properly it's a big project because most houses have been built around a gas boiler. You need a very good fitter and there are very few companies that are qualified to do the job yet.
|
|
