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Post by Dogburger on Jan 31, 2024 14:14:04 GMT
What is should mean is that only UK Citizens are eligible for social housing. What will happen in practice is that an increasing amount of social housing will be given to people who are not citizens of the UK. Like I said I've got no problem at all with prioritising British citizens but I also have no objections to a foreign born care worker or nurse being given social housing. The NHS should have their own housing for such people .
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Post by happyhornet on Jan 31, 2024 14:19:59 GMT
Im not denying anyone social housing just suggesting that if there is a waiting list some should be waiting longer than others . How we prioritise is always going to leave some aggrieved and for me it shouldn't be people who have generational ties to an area . But again that's an accident of birth. What's the moral difference between denying a British citizen housing because they happened to be born to immigrant grandparents and denying a British citizen housing because they happened to be born disabled?
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Post by happyhornet on Jan 31, 2024 14:21:51 GMT
Like I said I've got no problem at all with prioritising British citizens but I also have no objections to a foreign born care worker or nurse being given social housing. The NHS should have their own housing for such people . Or better yet the government address the issue of social housing shortages instead of pitting us against each other to distract from their failures.
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Post by Red Rackham on Jan 31, 2024 14:23:24 GMT
Like I said I've got no problem at all with prioritising British citizens but I also have no objections to a foreign born care worker or nurse being given social housing. The NHS should have their own housing for such people . I agree, there's a lot to be said for providing tied housing for emergency service personnel. This used to be the case for the police but I believe it's gone out of fashion these days.
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Post by Dogburger on Jan 31, 2024 14:35:49 GMT
The NHS should have their own housing for such people . Or better yet the government address the issue of social housing shortages instead of pitting us against each other to distract from their failures. I think we are in agreement there shouldn't be a shortage of social housing .Especially in these times when people can not afford the cost of private home ownership . But I'll stick to my criteria on the waiting list as a starting point for social housing and look forward to the day that there isn't one
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Post by happyhornet on Jan 31, 2024 14:42:00 GMT
Or better yet the government address the issue of social housing shortages instead of pitting us against each other to distract from their failures. I think we are in agreement there shouldn't be a shortage of social housing .Especially in these times when people can not afford the cost of private home ownership . But I'll stick to my criteria on the waiting list as a starting point for social housing and look forward to the day that there isn't one Your criteria essentially creates two tiers of British citizenship in which an accident of birth gives some British citizens less entitlement than others. It's also a pretty clear cut case of positive discrimination.
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Post by Orac on Jan 31, 2024 15:08:02 GMT
I think we are in agreement there shouldn't be a shortage of social housing .Especially in these times when people can not afford the cost of private home ownership . But I'll stick to my criteria on the waiting list as a starting point for social housing and look forward to the day that there isn't one Your criteria essentially creates two tiers of British citizenship in which an accident of birth gives some British citizens less entitlement than others. That's often how functioning and organic social organisations work. The 'accident' means your family was here first and has been a part of our society longer and you are result of that family. Newcomers should ideally go to the back of these handout queues in order to act as a brake on unmanageable pop. growth.
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Post by happyhornet on Jan 31, 2024 15:16:08 GMT
Your criteria essentially creates two tiers of British citizenship in which an accident of birth gives some British citizens less entitlement than others. That's often how functioning and organic social organisations work. The 'accident' means your family was here first and has been a part of our society longer and you are result of that family. Newcomers should ideally go to the back of these handout queues in order to act as a brake on unmanageable pop. growth. But you can't help which family you were born into. If someone was to argue that historical prejudice endured by ethnic minorites means that they should be put to the front of the que for social housing I'm sure that like me, you would object. But what's the moral difference between that and discriminating based on British ancestry?
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Post by Orac on Jan 31, 2024 15:30:36 GMT
That's often how functioning and organic social organisations work. The 'accident' means your family was here first and has been a part of our society longer and you are result of that family. Newcomers should ideally go to the back of these handout queues in order to act as a brake on unmanageable pop. growth. If someone was to argue that historical prejudice endured by ethnic minorites means that they should be put to the front of the que for social housing I'm sure that like me, you would object. If Nigerians want to argue that newcomers to Nigeria go to the back of any welfare queues, i wouldn't have an issue with that. It seems sensible to me - like i said, it manages expectations and incentives It's nobody's fault, but the measure isn't a punishment. It's also nobody in particular's fault that there are not enough freebie to go around, and given that there isn't, it is idiotic to take on yet more people to have an equal share of it.
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Post by happyhornet on Jan 31, 2024 15:36:33 GMT
If someone was to argue that historical prejudice endured by ethnic minorites means that they should be put to the front of the que for social housing I'm sure that like me, you would object. If Nigerians want to argue that newcomers to Nigeria go to the back of any welfare queues, i wouldn't have an issue with that. It seems sensible to me - like i said, it manages expectations and incentives It's nobody's fault, but the measure isn't a punishment. It's also nobody in particular's fault that there are not enough freebie to go around, and given that there isn't, it is idiotic to take on yet more people to have an equal share of it. But we aren't talking about newcomers we're talking about British citizens, dividing a nations citizens into tiers based on an accident of birth hasn't ended well historically. I'll ask again, what's the moral difference between putting someone to the back of the social housing que because they happened to be born to immigrant grandparents and putting someone to the back of the social housing que because they happened to be born white?
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Post by Orac on Jan 31, 2024 15:53:33 GMT
If Nigerians want to argue that newcomers to Nigeria go to the back of any welfare queues, i wouldn't have an issue with that. It seems sensible to me - like i said, it manages expectations and incentives It's nobody's fault, but the measure isn't a punishment. It's also nobody in particular's fault that there are not enough freebie to go around, and given that there isn't, it is idiotic to take on yet more people to have an equal share of it. But we aren't talking about newcomers we're talking about British citizens, dividing a nations citizens into tiers based on an accident of birth hasn't ended well historically. I'll ask again, what's the moral difference between putting someone to the back of the social housing que because they happened to be born to immigrant grandparents and putting someone to the back of the social housing que because they happened to be born white? Forcing the problems and dysfunction of one community on to another also often hasn't ended well. It's swings and roundabouts i guess. There is no moral difference because it isn't really a moral issue. Encouraging half of Africa to arrive because they would be given priority would be a bit idiotic / suicidal. Btw i wasn't explicit about how i felt this should work so i'm not arguing necessarily for present uk citizens to be treated differently to each other. However, it seems to me the notion of new arrivals going to the back of queues makes practical sense.
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Post by happyhornet on Jan 31, 2024 15:59:17 GMT
But we aren't talking about newcomers we're talking about British citizens, dividing a nations citizens into tiers based on an accident of birth hasn't ended well historically. I'll ask again, what's the moral difference between putting someone to the back of the social housing que because they happened to be born to immigrant grandparents and putting someone to the back of the social housing que because they happened to be born white? Forcing the problems and dysfunction of one community on to another also often hasn't ended well. It's swings and roundabouts i guess. There is no moral difference because it isn't really a moral issue. Encouraging half of Africa to arrive because they would be given priority would be a bit idiotic / suicidal. Btw i wasn't explicit about how i felt this should work so i'm not arguing necessarily for present uk citizens to be treated differently to each other. However, it seems to me the notion of new arrivals going to the back of queues makes practical sense. If you look back on my posts my original objection was to the argument that British citizens who's parents and grandparents are British to be given priority. Which would mean denying born and raised British citizens access to housing because of an accident of birth and creating two tiers of citizenship. I wasn't advocating for new arrivals to be given priority and never have done, in fact I explicitly stated that I have no problem with British citizens being prioritised.
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Post by Orac on Jan 31, 2024 16:12:19 GMT
Forcing the problems and dysfunction of one community on to another also often hasn't ended well. It's swings and roundabouts i guess. There is no moral difference because it isn't really a moral issue. Encouraging half of Africa to arrive because they would be given priority would be a bit idiotic / suicidal. Btw i wasn't explicit about how i felt this should work so i'm not arguing necessarily for present uk citizens to be treated differently to each other. However, it seems to me the notion of new arrivals going to the back of queues makes practical sense. If you look back on my posts my original objection was to the argument that British citizens who's parents and grandparents are British to be given priority. Which would mean denying born and raised British citizens access to housing because of an accident of birth and creating two tiers of citizenship. I believe this is somewhat similar to the way social housing used to work. Those with a long-standing connection to an area would get priority. This rule disincentivises moving around to passively collect advantages created by other groups. Given this principled show of egalitarianism, can I assume you are firmly against all other forms of 'positive discrimination' or 'affirmative action'?
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Post by johnofgwent on Jan 31, 2024 16:22:01 GMT
My problem is the stance taken by Bernie Grant and continued after his death by Diane Flabbott
Which is to call it racist when white councillors require a certain number of housing units be put aside for sons and daughters of existing Which tenants (tower hamlets, 1970’s) but ‘necessary to their culture’ when bangla and black councillors implement the same restriction for sons and daughters of bangla and black tenants (tower hamlets, 2009)
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Post by Orac on Jan 31, 2024 16:39:04 GMT
That brings up an interesting question
What is the moral difference between engaging in discrimination to ensure a population is diverse™, and undertaking similar action to ensure that it isn't diverse™?
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