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Post by johnofgwent on Jan 21, 2024 0:48:43 GMT
Good friends of ours left their life in Spain and decided to go and live in Merthyr Tydfil some years back. (We took them to Almería airport). They bought a house and soon sold it again after the petty crime and antisocial behaviour told them they had made a "bit of a mistake". They now live in Downham Market in Norfolk where it is far more civilised. My uncle & aunt bought a dairy farm in wales, they lived in Shropshire but for reasons I'm not aware of decided to move to SW Wales, this was in 1960. When they retired in the late 1990's both in their 70's by now, they decided to sell the farm and move away. They weren't 'gentleman' farmers, they were hard working farmers who were used to a seven day week. When they retired they still lived on the farm and were reluctant to sell because it was their home, however they got some advice and decided to sell. They couldn't belive how much they sold the farm for, they had no idea it was worth that much. I'm pleased to say their final years were very comfortable. They deserved it. The reason for this ramble is because the reason they decided to sell, and it was a tough decision, is because even though they had lived there since 1960, nearly 40 years later they were still regarded as outsiders. If Aunty Jan went to the local shop, they would start talking in Welsh, if Uncle Pete went to the pub, which he rarely did because it was a mile away, he got the same reception. My brother and I visited that pub... I wont go into that. The point being, that area of Wales, south Ceredigion, is not a nice place, they're like inbred cave dwellers who regard outsiders with hostile suspicion. This is why my grandmother, who spoke welsh as her first language, insisted i knew enough of the language to order beer in it. Otherwise, she said, they’d charge you the tourist price. It’s a shame they didn’t move further south west. pembrokeshire is more english than surrey |
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Post by thomas on Jan 21, 2024 8:08:59 GMT
what I mean is all Scots , certainly when I was at school , were taught standard English , in terms of writing .No Scots writing was taught or allowed , or encouraged. Scots is different in grammar vocabulary and pronounciation to standard English . I speak the Glasgow lallans , and moray loon I would imagine speaks doric. Doric is almost totally unintelligible to an English speaker , from memory because it was heavily influenced by the flemish speakers centuries ago in the north east im told. Surely some Scots speak standard English, more or less? of course. There is a lot of Scots dialects , some closer to standard English others further away. Doesn't the written word though in most languages follow the spoken word? |
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Post by Ripley on Jan 21, 2024 14:39:25 GMT
Surely some Scots speak standard English, more or less? of course. There is a lot of Scots dialects , some closer to standard English others further away. Doesn't the written word though in most languages follow the spoken word? I would think so, but perhaps writing standard English whilst speaking Scots is just to accommodate trade, in recognition of the fact that English is better known outside of Scotland whereas Scots is generally limited to Scotland. A couple of posts ago you wrote that Scots has a different vocabulary, grammar and pronunciation. Can you give me an example of different grammar? |
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Post by thomas on Jan 21, 2024 16:07:58 GMT
of course. There is a lot of Scots dialects , some closer to standard English others further away. Doesn't the written word though in most languages follow the spoken word? I would think so, but perhaps writing standard English whilst speaking Scots is just to accommodate trade, in recognition of the fact that English is better known outside of Scotland whereas Scots is generally limited to Scotland. A couple of posts ago you wrote that Scots has a different vocabulary, grammar and pronunciation. Can you give me an example of different grammar? sure Ripley. Therein lies the issue. Gaelic is scotlands native language. Like the Republic of Ireland , who have been independent for a century now and no excuses , no Scottish politician , nor Irish politician , does anything more than pay lip service , pardon the pun , to the Gaelic language. It's taught in both ireland , and to a lesser degree Scotland , as you would a foreign language. The Israelis have managed to do in something like 70 0dd years with Hebrew , what the Irish haven't managed in 100 years with Gaelic , because no Irish politician seriously wants Gaelic to be the common language of ireland for economic reasons. The same applies to Scotland. Regarding Scots , have a look at this...... Scots
Unlike Scottish Standard English, Scots is not a variety of Global English, but a Germanic language in its own right, with its own unique grammar, syntax, vocabulary and idiom. It is closely related to other West Germanic languages, such as English, German and Dutch, and to the North Germanic languages of Danish, Swedish and Norwegian.
www.languagereach.com/the-spirit-of-scots/?utm_medium=undefined
Not sure I agree Scots is derived from the same anglo saxon ancestor. That's a myth. There were no anglo saxons in Scotland , outside of the modern border area , in history , and no written evidence of anglo saxon in Scotland from the dark ages. The language developed from the Norman French , and the merchant burghs of the south east and east coasts , which were settled by European merchants , so Scots essentially was a trading language , or as the historian G.Barrow put it , Scots speaking islands in a sea of Gaelic. |
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Post by Ripley on Jan 21, 2024 17:03:59 GMT
I would think so, but perhaps writing standard English whilst speaking Scots is just to accommodate trade, in recognition of the fact that English is better known outside of Scotland whereas Scots is generally limited to Scotland. A couple of posts ago you wrote that Scots has a different vocabulary, grammar and pronunciation. Can you give me an example of different grammar? sure Ripley. Therein lies the issue. Gaelic is scotlands native language. Like the Republic of Ireland , who have been independent for a century now and no excuses , no Scottish politician , nor Irish politician , does anything more than pay lip service , pardon the pun , to the Gaelic language. It's taught in both ireland , and to a lesser degree Scotland , as you would a foreign language. The Israelis have managed to do in something like 70 0dd years with Hebrew , what the Irish haven't managed in 100 years with Gaelic , because no Irish politician seriously wants Gaelic to be the common language of ireland for economic reasons. The same applies to Scotland. Regarding Scots , have a look at this...... Scots
Unlike Scottish Standard English, Scots is not a variety of Global English, but a Germanic language in its own right, with its own unique grammar, syntax, vocabulary and idiom. It is closely related to other West Germanic languages, such as English, German and Dutch, and to the North Germanic languages of Danish, Swedish and Norwegian.
www.languagereach.com/the-spirit-of-scots/?utm_medium=undefined
Not sure I agree Scots is derived from the same anglo saxon ancestor. That's a myth. There were no anglo saxons in Scotland , outside of the modern border area , in history , and no written evidence of anglo saxon in Scotland from the dark ages. The language developed from the Norman French , and the merchant burghs of the south east and east coasts , which were settled by European merchants , so Scots essentially was a trading language , or as the historian G.Barrow put it , Scots speaking islands in a sea of Gaelic. Other countries manage to conduct trade and international business in English whilst keeping their native languages intact. I don't see a conflict there. English is a useful tool wherever Scots vocabulary wouldn't be understood, but there is no reason the Scots language couldn't be used locally for administrative purposes and road signage, etc., The question is, what percentage of Scots are speaking Scots vs standard English? And wasn't there a stigma attached to speaking Scots vs standard English at one time? Has that evaporated? Are more Scots speaking only Scots now, or are they compartmentalising? Thanks for the link. That was a fun read. Saw some words and expressions I haven't heard in a long time. |
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Post by thomas on Jan 21, 2024 18:47:09 GMT
sure Ripley. Therein lies the issue. Gaelic is scotlands native language. Like the Republic of Ireland , who have been independent for a century now and no excuses , no Scottish politician , nor Irish politician , does anything more than pay lip service , pardon the pun , to the Gaelic language. It's taught in both ireland , and to a lesser degree Scotland , as you would a foreign language. The Israelis have managed to do in something like 70 0dd years with Hebrew , what the Irish haven't managed in 100 years with Gaelic , because no Irish politician seriously wants Gaelic to be the common language of ireland for economic reasons. The same applies to Scotland. Regarding Scots , have a look at this...... Scots
Unlike Scottish Standard English, Scots is not a variety of Global English, but a Germanic language in its own right, with its own unique grammar, syntax, vocabulary and idiom. It is closely related to other West Germanic languages, such as English, German and Dutch, and to the North Germanic languages of Danish, Swedish and Norwegian.
www.languagereach.com/the-spirit-of-scots/?utm_medium=undefined
Not sure I agree Scots is derived from the same anglo saxon ancestor. That's a myth. There were no anglo saxons in Scotland , outside of the modern border area , in history , and no written evidence of anglo saxon in Scotland from the dark ages. The language developed from the Norman French , and the merchant burghs of the south east and east coasts , which were settled by European merchants , so Scots essentially was a trading language , or as the historian G.Barrow put it , Scots speaking islands in a sea of Gaelic. Other countries manage to conduct trade and international business in English whilst keeping their native languages intact. I don't see a conflict there. English is a useful tool wherever Scots vocabulary wouldn't be understood, but there is no reason the Scots language couldn't be used locally for administrative purposes and road signage, etc., The question is, what percentage of Scots are speaking Scots vs standard English? And wasn't there a stigma attached to speaking Scots vs standard English at one time? Has that evaporated? Are more Scots speaking only Scots now, or are they compartmentalising? Thanks for the link. That was a fun read. Saw some words and expressions I haven't heard in a long time. sure I understand that Ripley. I think though Scotlands current situation and the destruction of our language means were are more like ireland , than countries where their native language is alive and kicking , flourishing and being used daily , but they also speak American English as maybe a second language . the problem is our native language isn't intact. The estimates are difficult , but apparently a third of Scots speak the Scots language. the stigma was attached to both Gaelic and Scots , essentially going back to the late 16 th century onwards. The cultural cringe has lessened to a degree , certainly I have noticed it in my lifetime , but it's still partly there. |
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Post by borchester on Jan 23, 2024 13:17:33 GMT
When I meet someone from elsewhere, I try to be as friendly as possible and take the opportunity to make a new friend.
Most of the time it works, but once in a while I meet a professional Welshman, Scot, Yorkshireman, Frenchman, Green Martian or some such and I think what a sad bastard and give up.
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